Would you lay this down?

[Unarmed]

Home SnG
Blinds are 5-10

EP (100)
CO (100)
Button (100)
Hero - BB (200) - typical/aggressive image
Villain - SB (200) - Loose aggressive preflop, weak post flop, generally a poor player

I have A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Folded around to SB who bets 55.
This could mean anything. AA/KK/AK if its legit, any two cards if he's on a steal. I call (first mistake?) as I don't want to let him run me over and I think I can outplay him on the flop.

Flop (120) 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Villain pushes and has you barely covered. What do you do?
He doesn't have the onions to do this with junk. (I play with him quite a bit) so I go back to my initial read of AA/KK/AK and reason that there's a better chance he has AK (which I'm ahead of) than AA or KK combined. So I get ready to call, getting 2-1 on the pot. But then I stop, and think, (for a full minute actually) sh*t, his PF raise could have easily been A10 or better or JJ or QQ. Should I have been considering these as legit possibilities from the start?

A10 - I'm behind (16 ways)
AJ - behind (16)
AQ - ahead (16)
AK - ahead (16)
JJ - behind (6)
QQ - behind (6)
KK - behind (6)
AA - behind (6)

So I reason that I can beat only AQ and AK and the odds are 2-1ish he's holding that. I'm getting 2-1 so I fold because I don't like coin flips against crappy players. Thoughts?

Results:

<font color="white">I muck A8 face up and he shows AK. So I just mind f*cked myself out of a big pot. If I had just gone with my initial read I was actually favoured to win, not just getting odds to call (16 ways to have AK and 12 combined to have AA or KK) Anyway, I ended up winning the SNG anyway, but I think I butchered this hand.[color]

[Atropos]

" call (first mistake?) as I don't want to let him run me over and I think I can outplay him on the flop."

If I understand this right you want him to stop stealing. Blidn stealers arent impressed by getting called, if you want something you have to reraise.

At the flop I think you have to be very sure of your read to call this. He could have been on a blind steal with JX, TX... and you showed no strength by calling him. I would lay this down too, of course it's tough but hey, if you can outplay him on the flop you will have better opportunities later on.

[Cleveland Guy]

Fold this pre-flop.


I hate, hate, hate playing Ax vs. a pre-flop raise like this. If you put him on an A or a big pair, your calling for your 3 outs. and even when you hit one of your 3 outs, your never sure your really ahead.

If you thought it was a steal raise- re raise preflop and fold to an all in.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold this pre-flop.


I hate, hate, hate playing Ax vs. a pre-flop raise like this. If you put him on an A or a big pair, your calling for your 3 outs. and even when you hit one of your 3 outs, your never sure your really ahead.

If you thought it was a steal raise- re raise preflop and fold to an all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought that as well, but what should my raise be? 100?That leaves me with 40 chips left. Would you min raise here if you think hes on a steal? I didn't see any reraise but a push being feasible given stack sizes.

[Cleveland Guy]

I didn't look back up to see what the re-raise would leave you with.

In this case I fold and wait for a better place to push.

[papawawa]

he bets a quarter of his stack and you called with complete crap? I don't know if thats worse than folding the flop given your initial read. And you said you won it eh . . .

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
he bets a quarter of his stack and you called with complete crap? I don't know if thats worse than folding the flop given your initial read. And you said you won it eh . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

Playing A8 isn't horrible in a game where PF standards are loose/aggressive and postflop play is extremely weak. I push PF and I'm getting called by A10, AJ, AQ, AK every time. I push on the flop, and assuming he doesn't have TP all those lay down. (though it didn't work out that way in this hand, I can guarantee that if he checks and I push he will fold every single time on that board with AK)

That's why I just called.

[Unarmed]

Hey Papa, is trying a stop and go stupid in this case as I'm not acting first after the flop? I really didn't expect him to push, which totally screwed up my line.

It was basically, I'm going all-in this hand, but I'm waiting til after the flop because I know my opp is weaker then. Plus he's not pot committed yet so he'll definitely lay down if he doesn't get a nice piece of the board.

I know fold is the obvious choice, and I'm quite aware that A8 is crap. This was an exception...

Thx