Suggestion re: 2+2 tables

[Nate tha' Great]

I played at the 2+2 table for the first time in a long while tonight. Some of you might not have recognized by new Party handle.

The game got down to 3 and 4 players at the end, and it struck me: you guys ought to be playing this game short-handed. Probably 6-max or maybe 5-max. If there's a shortage of seats then create two 2+2 tables.

Here's why: the game, as it exists in its current form, is a preflop game. Few hands see the showdown, much less the turn. And so you have to make a lot of decisions like: TAG player raised in EMP, I've got 99 in the Cutoff, should I 3-bet or fold? Those decisions actually aren't terribly important. The EV of folding and 3-betting is pretty close. The fact of the matter is that most of you have very solid preflop games. If you're making mistakes, they're small and debatable ones. Good preflop play is what separates out the winning players from the fish, but it's not what separates out the good players from the very good ones.

Rather, what separates out the good players from the very good ones as you move up in limits is figuring out how to play against other aggressive players after the flop in pots that are contested between 2- and 3-handed. That is, say, figuring out *how* to play against the other TAG with your 99 when you *do* 3-bet with it. Or determining, say, whether and when to check behind on the turn when you fear a check-raise but also fear giving a free card. These things aren't terribly easy to pick up through study; they require experience.

You guys don't get a lot of that sort of experience playing the micro games since most of your opponents are so loose and so passive. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that you're getting very much of it at the 2+2 table either because the games are so goddamned tight. A real midlimit does *not* resemble the 2+2 table, and if it did, you would want to stay far, far away from it.

Once the table became shorthanded, though, it loosened things up enough that I *was* having to make a lot of the tough postflop decisions that you encounter more and more frequently as you move up in limits. I'm not suggesting that you guys should all go play Party 6-max; it's just that the *shorthanded* 2+2 game was doing a much better job of simulating a *full table* midlimit game than the full table 2+2 game was.

Just a thought, guys.


EDIT: I shouldn't be suggesting that you never encounter complicated multiway postflop situations in midlimit games. You do. But they don't play out all that differently from the multiway situations that you face in smaller games. The shorthanded situations that occur a lot in midlimit games but not microlimit games will not be as familiar to you guys.

[Jaran]

I would like to chime in and say that Nate's suggestion had merit. While I really enjoy the full ring 2+2 table, and do learn from playing it, it is when the table gets down to 4-5 players that the action really begins. I tend to hang around until it gets a little short handed because I get a lot more out of it. I feel pretty comfortable in my pf game, but my postflop game has some gaping holes. During the regular, full, 2+2 table, there are simply not enough marginal decisions for me to gain a lot in the area of my game that I feel needs the most work. (Also, the sh 2+2 table is hella fun)

-Jaran

[easypete]

I would have to second (or third) this.

I find myself at the beginning and end of the table (short handed) having to focus 100% on the table. When the table gets 7 or more on it, I can multitable, because the decisions aren't as hard to make.

Maybe next week, we can start a list for a second 2+2 table and just PM the password for those who want in.

[btspider]

good post

how about a single table tournament (can you make private ones on party?)

i think an arena table would also be interesting. heads-up matches where winning and losing hands are always revealed. it'd be good to have 5 or 6 people watching and commenting on your heads-up play.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[btspider]

lately a few 2+2 table incarnations have occured on public tables. its quite interesting to play with 5 or 6 trouts and 4 or 5 typical players. pots are worth fighting for, but you can't just lag it up and try to force everyone out. it seemed like postflop play was more important in these circumstances and you must constantly think about your relative position.

you also hear a few priceless comments from the non-trouts about the perceived ridiculousness of some of the plays.

[Entity]

I agree with all of the sentiments so far; I'd like to echo spider's comments about the mixed 2+2/normal tables. Those games end up being quite fun, especially when people don't necessarily reveal that they are 2+2 members.

Rob

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with all of the sentiments so far; I'd like to echo spider's comments about the mixed 2+2/normal tables. Those games end up being quite fun, especially when people don't necessarily reveal that they are 2+2 members.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

My favorite, after someone three bets me from the SB with 55 and spikes a set.

Other dude. "You 3-bet with that?" Against me, sure [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[GrunchCan]

Hijacking a regular table with a bunch of trouts is fun, but aside from the pure entertainment value, the experience is less substantive. My game is excercised better by the solid 2+2 ring. Also, I desperately need to add SH play to my mix.

So I think we need all 3, prefereably on different nights. Hijack the occasional civilian table for fun & profit. Play a solid ring to work on play against tough opponents. Add short tables for more postflop work.

[SlantNGo]

So are you guys suggesting a 2+2 table at 1/2 6-max then? Or still keeping it at 0.5/1 but going by trust people stop joining when it hits 6?