Could I have played this differently? (PP $10 + 1)

[floppy]

OK, first post, so be gentle:

PP $10 + 1. Blinds are 30/60:

9 players
5 folds
Me (~1400) 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] call 60
CO (~1700) call 60
Button (~1700) raise to 120
SB folds
BB folds
I call to 120
CO calls to 120

Flop:
J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I decide to try and take the pot by betting 500. The two big stacks to my left both call.

Turn:
5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

My thinking: There are 3 cards that, with another spade, have me beat. It's likely that, if one of the two other players has one of those cards, that it's not the nuts and that fact could paralyze them into checking it down.

I check.

First big stack bets 500, second calls.

There's now about 3000 in chips sitting there, so I raise all in (I only have 300 left after the raise)

All show:

Stack 1: J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Stack 2: straight draw w/1 pair (I think)

So in one respect, I got a good result for the wrong reasons. But:

- I'm thinking that I could have had the pot on the flop with an all-in then and there (my read was that neither had a higher flush draw)

- Conversely, the flop was bound to hit people in a very solid way, so perhaps the correct move was to check. If CO raises the size of the pot and Button calls, I'm getting correct odds. If CO raises size of pot and Button folds, I could still call, since I think I'd get correct implied odds. If CO checks and Button raises...I'm not sure.

So I guess my questions are:

- Should I have checked or bet on the flop? If a bet, what size? If a check, how should I respond to a bet?

- Once the flush came, how should I have played it?

- Was my read of no Ax, Jx or 10x of spades reasonable? (In a general sense. They didn't seem like very good players, but I'd never seen them play before.)

[durron597]

If you're going to try to just take this pot with a semibluff, you have to put your whole stack in the middle.

[adanthar]

Fold preflop. If you don't fold, raise preflop. By no means do you call.

Because you called, on the flop, you have the classic 'flush draw out of position in a tournament' dilemma. You are 100% certain to be beaten right now and 100% certain not to be able to make anyone fold, even with an overbet (because this is Party 10+1, overbet= flush draw, and at this level even T8o will still call). Your implied odds suck against thinking players, but fortunately, these players don't think, so you can still continue with the draw- if they make it cheap for you.

Here's the tricky part: Unless you're pot committed, you can't call a big bet on the turn if your flush doesn't hit, and you really don't want to be pot committed with this hand. Therefore, your effective pot odds are not 2:1; they're 4:1. [If this was a Stars 50+5, an all in is a much better option than usual since you can make better hands fold and reduce your odds against to 2:1. Since this isn't Stars, you have to proceed this way.]

So the way I play it, on the rare occasion that I get into these situations, is to check/call up to a pot sized bet when the pot is very small (with good implied odds), but to check/fold to heads up or 3 handed pot sized bets when the pot is large in relation to my stack size.

Here, I'd check and then call about 250-300 or so or fold for more.

[floppy]

Sorry, should have specified that this was on Paridise Poker, not the fishbowl [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].

[Gramps]

Fold preflop.

I think on the flop, it's okay to try and take down the pot, but don't commit so many chips in doing it. K-Q-J means there's a good chance that board hit the PFR hard, and he may push on you. If you do take a shot, I'd commit fewer chips than 500, if the flop missed him, he'll fold to a smaller bet - if the flop hit him good, and he pushes on you, you'll lose fewer chips when forced to fold. And he may just flat call your flop bet, which still gives you a chance to take another card off to hit your flush (assuming CO doesn't raise it up either).

On the Turn, I'd say just push. Don't risk giving a higher spade the option of a free card. There's a sh-tload of chips in there now, no shame in folding everyone out and taking down that monster pot. You still have a good chance of hands drawing dead/near dead (two pair) to call your all-in bet as well.

I WANT to give a higher spade the chance to fold here on the Turn. If you win the chips already in the pot on the Turn, you're in a dominating chip position vs. the field, no need to risk putting your tourney life completely on the line by getting cute to extract a few more chips here.