Was this QTo play un-2+2-like?

nolanfan34 · #1 08-03-2004, 01:13 AM

After this hand, the victim claimed my play was "terrible", and "very disappointing for a 2+2 poster".

First time I've been called out like that. But after reading SSH, I think this wasn't THAT fishy. Thoughts?

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Standard call here right? This was the first hand I played after sitting down, so no solid reads yet. I was assuming all of the limpers would call, and they did.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Button bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 folds.

With the bet to me, I'm easily getting the odds to call with my gutshot here, right? And if a Q or T falls I may even have the best hand.

Turn: (7.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Button bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds.

This might be the fishy part. I assumed both limpers fellow limpers would also call, although only one did. Wasn't sure if I could make up enough bets on the end to justify calling with my gutshot, I thought it was close, and I swear I heard Ed Miller saying "don't fold" in my ear.

River: (10.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, Button bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 folds, Button 3-bets, Hero caps, Button calls.

Final Pot: 18.25 BB
Main Pot: 18.25 BB, between Button and Hero.

So was that play as bad as it seemed?

Tosh · #2 08-03-2004, 01:30 AM

Raise the flop.

nolanfan34 · #3 08-03-2004, 01:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Isn't that more likely to drive people out, leaving me heads up with the raiser? Putting in 2 bets on the flop makes the odds incorrect I think.

In Ed's book, I think he talks about using the check-raise in a spot like this when you want to make people face two bets cold, to drive them out. In this spot, I WANT limpers who could be drawing nearly dead if I hit my gutshot, don't I?

cold_cash · #4 08-03-2004, 02:06 AM

A flop raise will give you a better chance to win if you catch a Queen or a Ten. (Assuming it cuts some of the dead weight behind you.)

I think the pot is too big not to do it.

kenewbie · #5 08-03-2004, 03:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
A flop raise will give you a better chance to win if you catch a Queen or a Ten. (Assuming it cuts some of the dead weight behind you.) I think the pot is too big not to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an interesting issue, when faced with the option of either driving out players to clean up my overcards or keep them in to assure I get the odds I need on my long shot, I usually go for the latter. This might be one big-ass leak.

Anyone able to do the math under the assumtion that raising always cleans up all your outs?

k

HajiShirazu · #6 08-03-2004, 06:10 AM

First of all where did you find a stars table where FIVE people took the flop? I guess all the big cards magically dropped from the deck in a coordinated nature for one amazing hand of multiway glory. I mean, stars was a total joke rockfest when I played there. Half those people play less hands than me, and that's scary. Come join the party.
Calling preflop is poor. I mean, even if we're going by SSH, it pretty much says not to call raises with "the weak offsuit hands."
You should really take advantage of the opportunity to checkraise this flop.
I don't like the turn call. For it to be right, all four of your outs have to always be good, you have to never have a raise on this turn behind you (which could EASILY happen given this turn card,) and you have to be sure that you will collect at least two bets on the river if you hit which might not be so easy considering the bettor could have a QQ type hand that he checks through on the river.
The victim's comments were also "terrible" and "very disappointing for a 2+2 poster."

nolanfan34 · #7 08-03-2004, 11:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
First of all where did you find a stars table where FIVE people took the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been playing at Stars working off my reload bonus there. Honestly, the play has been a lot looser than I remembered. MicroBob and others have also mentioned noticing this. The play is plenty loose for me.

[ QUOTE ]
Calling preflop is poor. I mean, even if we're going by SSH, it pretty much says not to call raises with "the weak offsuit hands."

[/ QUOTE ]

Two bets cold I would fold of course, but in the BB with one bet to call in a likely 5-way pot, I don't think a call is horrible here.

[ QUOTE ]
For it to be right, all four of your outs have to always be good, you have to never have a raise on this turn behind you (which could EASILY happen given this turn card,) and you have to be sure that you will collect at least two bets on the river if you hit which might not be so easy considering the bettor could have a QQ type hand that he checks through on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I felt my 4 J's were probably clean. You are right that by calling I was risking a CR from one of the limpers on the turn, but if that happened, it would be very hard to fold with a pot that large, potentially drawing to the nuts. That's something I've taken away from reading SSH, that you'll lose a lot of money in the long run folding hands that have live draws when you only have to call one more BB.

[ QUOTE ]
The victim's comments were also "terrible" and "very disappointing for a 2+2 poster."

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. At least bust out some sort of brown trout reference if you're going to scold me [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

Sarge85 · #8 08-03-2004, 11:57 AM

Gutshot+2 Overcards is one of my favorite hands. I'd CR the flop here.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

chief444 · #9 08-03-2004, 12:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is an interesting issue, when faced with the option of either driving out players to clean up my overcards or keep them in to assure I get the odds I need on my long shot, I usually go for the latter. This might be one big-ass leak.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's a big leak if you do this when the pot is large. Without getting into some example hand with math, just understand that raising here will generally give you a better chance to win the hand...maybe 10% to 20% for the sake of argument. So is raising better then calling? With a small pot NO. With a large pot YES. Do you see why in terms of expected value?

I agreee with Tosh that this is a definite spot to raise the flop.

nolanfan34 · #10 08-03-2004, 12:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you see why in terms of expected value?

I agreee with Tosh that this is a definite spot to raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I see what you guys are saying. So, say I CR here, and 2 of the 3 other limpers plus the PF raiser all call.

The A falls again on the turn.

Check/call the turn, correct? If a blank falls I'd bet out.