The Changing Face of Hold 'em

[Boopotts]

I was rained out from work today, so on a lark I decided to cruise down to Greektown and jump into a bit of 10-20. Aside from a little bit of play here and there I really haven't played much for the past year or so-- what with working on my website, family obligations, etc-- so I wasn't really sure what to expect.

Oddly enough, it seemed that the B&M game hadn't changed all that much. Most of the pots were under 6 BB's, and the game was filled primarily by studious looking middle aged men-- the type who do far more calling than raising, and who at least make an effort to play well before the flop. Overall, it was the same game I left behind in 2002. The faces may have changed, but the style of play seemed unaltered.

As an experiment I decided to sit down in an online 10-20 tonight. I'd heard plenty about the throngs of fish in the mid limit Internet games, and I had about a grand still rattling around in my Party account, so I thought I'd give it a whirl. At about 10 tonight I bought in for 500 and took a seat in a full 10-20 game, interested to see how it compared to the B&M game.

Jesus Christ. I've been playing for seven years, and I'm not sure I've ever seen so many bad players who thought they played well assembled at one table at the same time. There was absolutely no shortage of 'isolation three bets' with hands like 87s, flop capping with mid pair and a backdoor flush draw, and on and on. The play du jour appeared to be check raising a pre-flop raiser on a total bluff-- just to check and see if 'they had AK'. Probably 85% of the hands I played featured at least one completely illegitimate bet or raise, and not a few featured two or three of them.

As I watched this zoo game unfold, two things occured to me. First, for whatever reason the online game bears only the faintest resemblance to the casino games I've played in. And second, that a player who read HFAP would be completely unprepared for mid limit online play. I mean completely unprepared. If you have JJ online, and get three bet pre flop, your leaving all kinds of money on the table if you check and call on a 983 flop. 21st Century edition or no, Mason and David are going to have to rework that text if they want it to remain relevant. I learned a lot from HFAP, and much of the strategy did and still does apply to casino play, but the online game is just an entirely different beast.

Anyway, just some random thoughts now that the day has wound down. I'd be curious to see if anyone else has made these same observations, or if I just happened to stumble into the stupidest game ever played on Party.

[dogmeat]

You are right. Much of what I see in B&M (not including California) is the same as it has been for a few years - but the games on line are tough if you are used to only casino play. I had a very tough first month adjusting to the online style, and have moved cautiously from .50/$1 to $3/6. This week I took my first full-time shot at $5/$10 and it has been rough for me. The games I was in today were just like the micro-limits, some hands were seven-to-the-flop after I raised with AK, and you can be sure I never dragged one of those pots.

I'm not saying the games are not great, just hard to adjust to. Althogh these players are exactly what I want in a game, I am taking a beating, because I have yet to have any good hands stand up and find myself down 70 units for the week. Not a huge amount, but I have never had a $700 loss in the past 8 months, so it still hurts.

If you have the bankroll, the money is there to be made.

Just checked my Pokertracker stats after my crying about getting beat. In the last two days I played just over 10 hours, 3-4 tables, and held AA just one time, winning the blinds; held KK three times, winning $17. Might have some major changes to my numbers if I was a little closer to average for these hands. I held JJ 7 times, losing $205. Wow, I can't wait to play tomorrow, I'll probably be run over by good cards [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[LeapingGnome]

Do you think this has anything to do with you going to the casino in middle of a week day? What if you went on a Saturday night and compared to online, I wonder if there would be such a huge difference?

[Vollycat]

To me (and I'm new to the game--no doubt), but this begs the question posted a few weeks ago--What is a tough player? Is it someone who has enough money to play higher stakes? Nope.
HFAP is an excellent book and gives a great base of knowledge against 'sensible players'. But I think it is a given that there are plenty of terrible players playing at limits that are over their heads (thankfully!!)--especially online.
Has anyone read the new Small Stakes book by Ed and possibly applied this to the higher limits? I have not read the new book, so I was curious. It would make sense that with the amount of unguided big stakes players, they may play with low limit ability and Ed's book may be more apllicable to this 'online crazy play'???

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]

Has anyone read the new Small Stakes book by Ed and possibly applied this to the higher limits? I have not read the new book, so I was curious. It would make sense that with the amount of unguided big stakes players, they may play with low limit ability and Ed's book may be more apllicable to this 'online crazy play'???

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't play those limits, but have read the book. Ed's book really applies to ANY game where players play like a small stakes game. This is characterized not only by loose pre-flop play, but by players taking their hands too far. From what I understand about the higher limits is that there are people that play loosly pre-flop, but VERY good post-flop. (In fact I think in HEFAP, Sklansky talks about these types of player where their only mistake appears to be too loose preflop). Ed's book absolutely PUNISHES opponents for taking their hands too far, so yes, I'm sure it would work at any limit where you have these types of opponents.

[thespecialist]

the 5/10 to 15/30 games in casinos are closer to the style of 2/4 to 3/6 online play. When i play the 20/40 to 50/100 games in the casino, it's very similar to the 10/20 15/30 games on the net

[Gordon Scott]

[ QUOTE ]
the 5/10 to 15/30 games in casinos are closer to the style of 2/4 to 3/6 online play. When i play the 20/40 to 50/100 games in the casino, it's very similar to the 10/20 15/30 games on the net

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds bass-ackwards but I've never played over 15-30 live. Mostly small pot-limit online.

[playerfl]

its true, live games are more fun oriented with drinking and people on vacation.

[Gordon Scott]

You know I never really thought about it that way.

I guess booze and sleep deprivation still come into play online, but the fact that players get to play 2, 3 or 4 hands at a time probably reduces the “I’m getting bad cards and I drove a long way and want to play, any two will do” syndrome that I see a lot at the B&M games.

I’ve only played SNGs and a little small buy in pot limit Omaha online but I will absolutely give the 3-6 5-10 a run online.

Thanks for the info.