the fish is back

dfscott · #1 07-27-2004, 03:46 PM

It's me, your favorite SnG fish, looking for answers. 5th hand of the SnG and already mixing it up. Should I fear AXs here?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1480)
MP3 (t1520)
CO (t1780)
Button (t1380)
SB (t1460)
Hero (t1500)
UTG (t1460)
UTG+1 (t1420)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls t20, 2 folds, CO calls t20, Button calls t20, SB completes, Hero checks,

Flop: (t100) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, CO bets t60, Button folds, SB calls t60, Hero calls t60, MP1 calls t60.

Turn: (t340) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, CO bets t120, SB calls t120, Hero calls t120, MP1 folds.

River: (t700) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t600, CO raises to t1300, SB folds, Hero calls t700 (All-In).

Final Pot: t3300
Main Pot: t3300 (t3300), between CO and Hero.

Cleveland Guy · #2 07-27-2004, 04:17 PM

Pair on the Board and you with a 9 high flush?

I'm not sure I'm opening for 600 - let alone calling an all in. With a pot no one raised pre-flop lot of possible better hands than yours.

TheDrone · #3 07-27-2004, 04:29 PM

Calling the flop and turn bets with your nine-high flush draw is a questionable play given the pot odds and the paired Q.

That said, once you hit your flush, let's talk about the river bet. You generally want to make a bet that will get weaker hands to call when you have the best hand, or a better hand to fold when you have second best. No guarantees on having the best hand here. If you are willing to call a reraise that puts you all-in, then you should have pushed in the first place to get some folding equity. If you are not willing to commit all of your chips, then make a smaller bet like 100 or 200 to test the waters and get out if you are up against more than a min raise.

poboys · #4 07-27-2004, 04:56 PM

When calling the T20 and playinga suited two-gapper, this is a pretty nice flop (sure we'd all love to flop a boat, or a straight flush). You are a 2:1 dog to hit your flush.

Oddly enough, the player is giving you great odds to chase (and of course, giving himself those same great odds). I would consider two-pair (by a poor player), set of 2s (that turned into a boat on the turn) or a higher flush.

At the river your bet says, I hit my flush. When he goes over the top he's saying, I don't care--I can beat it or he's saying I don't believe you. This is a tough decision for you to make.

If he has a strong hand, he may value-bet the river. Betting just enough to try and get you to call, or just enough to scare you away but still not cripple him if you have a better hand. I'd check and make a decision based on the size of his bet.

When you play these types of hands you have to make these types of (tough) decisions.

dfscott · #5 07-27-2004, 06:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Pair on the Board and you with a 9 high flush?

I'm not sure I'm opening for 600 - let alone calling an all in. With a pot no one raised pre-flop lot of possible better hands than yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

So would you check/call? How much would you be willing to call here?

dfscott · #6 07-27-2004, 06:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
When you play these types of hands you have to make these types of (tough) decisions.

[/ QUOTE ]

So would you have folded to the flop bet?

dfscott · #7 07-27-2004, 06:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Calling the flop and turn bets with your nine-high flush draw is a questionable play given the pot odds and the paired Q.

That said, once you hit your flush, let's talk about the river bet. You generally want to make a bet that will get weaker hands to call when you have the best hand, or a better hand to fold when you have second best. No guarantees on having the best hand here. If you are willing to call a reraise that puts you all-in, then you should have pushed in the first place to get some folding equity. If you are not willing to commit all of your chips, then make a smaller bet like 100 or 200 to test the waters and get out if you are up against more than a min raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had really planned to fold as soon as I wasn't getting sufficient pot odds to call. If I hit my flush, I was pushing.

I kept getting the odds, but his betting seemed really wierd to me and made me nervous. I generally always bet the pot when I bet (maybe that's a little too formulaic) so I felt like this was as little as I could get by with.

I like your small bet a lot better.

Hood · #8 07-28-2004, 09:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It's me, your favorite SnG fish, looking for answers. 5th hand of the SnG and already mixing it up. Should I fear AXs here?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1480)
MP3 (t1520)
CO (t1780)
Button (t1380)
SB (t1460)
Hero (t1500)
UTG (t1460)
UTG+1 (t1420)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls t20, 2 folds, CO calls t20, Button calls t20, SB completes, Hero checks,

Flop: (t100) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, CO bets t60, Button folds, SB calls t60, Hero calls t60, MP1 calls t60.

Turn: (t340) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, CO bets t120, SB calls t120, Hero calls t120, MP1 folds.

River: (t700) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t600, CO raises to t1300, SB folds, Hero calls t700 (All-In).

Final Pot: t3300
Main Pot: t3300 (t3300), between CO and Hero.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with a lot of the comments in this thread.

I think there are two ways you can play this. Either the "I'm not playing a non-nut flush draw early on, I don't care if I'm getting +CEV odds it's too risky" way or the "cool I've got a flush draw I'm going to call this while I'm getting odds". I'm not sure which is correct, but it's one of the other. I think the replies are mixing between the two.

On the flop, you've hit a flush draw, and are facing calling 60 in to 220, 3.7:1. You're not quite getting odds to call this for the turn card, but it's close and you could argue implied odds pushes this up. However there's a player still to act who may raise, and you're drawing to a non-nut hand. I think I'd probably fold this.

However, if you're going to play for the flush, you're going to play for the flush. If you call, then I think the turn is an easy call - 120 in to 580, 4.8:1. If we're not worrying about a higher flush, we can't really start getting wet feet because a paired board means there could be a full-house other there.

The the river, you hit your hand. There is only one thing to do here - try and get all your money in the pot. Which is what you did. Analysing the river play is silly - you can't fold here as you couldn't have wanted a better card. I think "testing the water" on the river with betting 100 in to 600 pot is very, very bad advice.