Guns vs crime in Brazil

[Cyrus]

Those guys in Brazil must not have heard of the benefits of handguns in combatting crime.


CNN Report

[MMMMMM]

Brazil would have an extremely high crime rate with or without guns. I have Brazilian friends from the 80's and they have told me much about how things are in Brazil. Corruption is rampant and crime is rampant and if you are rich you can basically get away with anything there, even murder.

Brazil has also long had more restrictive gun laws than the United States. Same with Russia. Guess those gun laws didn't do much to stop gun crime there, though, eh, Cyrus? Both Brazil and Russia have long had both more restrictive gun laws AND higher gun crime/violent crime rates than the USA.

Of course now that Lula, a Far Leftist, has been elected in Brazil, the government has begun going about confiscating guns. Typical commie-type behavior throughout history. When the guns get pretty well confiscated that's when governments generally start arresting, imprisoning and murdering dissidents. How blind does one have to be to not see this historical pattern in far left governments?

[Cptkernow]

No pattern of arresting/torturing/killing dissedents by rightist governments in South America. (Often backed by the good ol US of A).

[MMMMMM]

Obviously both Left and Right governments have done it; I said Leftist governments because: 1) Brazil has moved sharply left recently and Cyrus' post referred to Brazil, and 2) Communist governments have BY FAR the worst records in history for slaughtering people. Nothing even comes close to the USSR's and Red China's records for slaughter--nothing.

Funny, too, that you should pick up so defensively like that on something that was both relevant to Cyrus' post, and quite appropriate to mention in the larger historical picture;-)

Take a look at history and you will see clearly that Leftist governments have engaged in by far the most slaughter. It isn't even close. Red China and the USSR slaughtered between 80-100 million of their own people. That doesn't even count deaths in war, or the atrocities of other communist governments in Southeast Asia.

When will people wake up? Apparently, never. That's why Ray Zee and Zeno have more wisdom in their little fingers than all the Leftists in the world possess in their combined cerebral cortexes;-)

Leftism cannot be implemented without granting government near-totalitarian powers. It is an oxymoron to have a Leftist government without overwhelming centralized power. And that inevitably leads to eventual and overwhelming tyranny.

[Cyrus]

There are, as usual, numerous things wrong with your arguments. One of them is that they are irrelevant! This is not about right-wing versus left-wing but about the relation of handgun availability to crime, in general.

Brazil has only recently elected someone who is not from the right-wing of politics, namely Lula. He is a populist more than anything else. He will not do any of the things his opponents accuse him of or fear. Such as the much-needed land reform. Or stopping the destruction of the rainforest. Or cracking down on private death-squad armies financed by the oligarchy.

The item I posted was about guns. It had a funny side to it too! Brazil declared an amnesty for whomever handed over illegally held guns. So a Brazilian woman hands over some thousand guns!

So relax. Your rage makes you miss some funny sights...

"Leftism cannot be implemented without granting government near-totalitarian powers. It is an oxymoron to have a Leftist government without overwhelming centralized power. And that inevitably leads to eventual and overwhelming tyranny."

you must mean "communism". Leftism as a term does not exist outside the fevered paranoia of extreme rightwingers such as yourself (who are also ignorant of political philosophy and just spout off terms straight from the tabloids or WorldNetDaily).

There are a lot of things to be said about humanity's latest (i.e. last two hundred years') fad, capitalism, a lot of them good, some of them worryingly bad - but I just don't think you have the capability or the even keel to be the opposite part in such a debate.

So...

How about them [insert favorite spots team here] huh ?

[MMMMMM]

"There are, as usual, numerous things wrong with your arguments. One of them is that they are irrelevant!"

So what's wrong, or irrelevant, about pointing out that Brazil has long had more restrictive gun control laws than the USA, yet has also had higher crime?

"This is not about right-wing versus left-wing but about the relation of handgun availability to crime, in general."

So I am out of line making a more general observation? Pardon moi, then.

Brazil has only recently elected someone who is not from the right-wing of politics, namely Lula. He is a populist more than anything else."

Is he a communist or isn't he? Is he a populist communist?

" He will not do any of the things his opponents accuse him of or fear. Such as the much-needed land reform. Or stopping the destruction of the rainforest. Or cracking down on private death-squad armies financed by the oligarchy."

If you say so.

"The item I posted was about guns. It had a funny side to it too! Brazil declared an amnesty for whomever handed over illegally held guns. So a Brazilian woman hands over some thousand guns!"

I noted that too, it might have been on WorldNet Daily.

"So relax. Your rage makes you miss some funny sights..."

No rage that I can detect at this time. Maybe, though, you are not only psychic, but prescient as well...


"Leftism cannot be implemented without granting government near-totalitarian powers. It is an oxymoron to have a Leftist government without overwhelming centralized power. And that inevitably leads to eventual and overwhelming tyranny."

"you must mean "communism". Leftism as a term does not exist outside the fevered paranoia of extreme rightwingers such as yourself (who are also ignorant of political philosophy and just spout off terms straight from the tabloids or WorldNetDaily)."

Define it as you wish. I believe Leftism does exist and that Communism is the most polar extreme of it.

"There are a lot of things to be said about humanity's latest (i.e. last two hundred years') fad, capitalism, a lot of them good, some of them worryingly bad - but I just don't think you have the capability or the even keel to be the opposite part in such a debate."

Who said anything about debate? Anyone today who thinks there is anything much to debate regarding which system is clearly and vastly superior, is totally and permanently out to lunch in a rubber dinghy in the Sea of Okhostk.

"So...

How about them [insert favorite spots team here] huh ?"

I think they suck.

[Cyrus]

"Is [Brazilian president Lula] a communist or isn't he? Is he a populist communist?"

Lula a communist? [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] I'm sure you are scared to look under your bed at nights.

"I believe Leftism does exist."

Ah, now I see. You mean Autism! I agree, that does exist alright. We see evidence of it every time Jimbo puts up an offering. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] (Hi, Jim. Mind those stretchers.)

"Anyone today who thinks there is anything much to debate regarding which system is clearly and vastly superior, is totally and permanently out to lunch in a rubber dinghy in the Sea of Okhostk."

Before you start rowing: I never disputed that capitalism has shown to be the best system tried so far by humanity. However, it comes with some deep and very worrying flaws, which must be addressed pronto. Your kind of blind, obedient thinking (the thinking of a fan, not of a thinking man) is not the appropriate one for such an endeavor.

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
That's why Ray Zee and Zeno have more wisdom in their little fingers than all the Leftists in the world possess in their combined cerebral cortexes;-)


[/ QUOTE ]

I think Ray and Zeno are both pretty sharp guys, definitely bigger poker minds than myself, quite possibly more knowledgeable in other subjects as well.

But I could smoke their pinky fingers on the SATs, and I'll even spot them 5 minutes.

I would appreciate if you would define "leftist" a little better. I consider myself to be somewhere on the 'left' but probably not in any category commonly described here. You are usually much more specific than this.

I assume you probably meant communist/socialist.

I think there are a number of reasons (beyond the authoritarian, Leninist readings of Marx that pass for Marxism these days) that the worst human rights violations (in terms of sheer numbers) have so far been committed by socialist states. Some of them have to do with 'leftism' and some don't. I don't think we can attribute these brutal, inexcusable circumstances to Leftist ideologies, however; rather, those who have perpetrated them ceased to be 'socialists' or any other form of legitimate left-wing political types when they murdered their own people. Still, the vulnerability of left-wing revolutionary governments to these hacks is of great concern.

BTW, where do we put the Holocaust on this scale? In terms of sheer numbers it is not as successful as Stalinism when it comes to genocide, the motive was perhaps even more sinister.

I haven't read through this thread yet, so if anyone brought this up already, my bad.

[natedogg]

cyrus: Leftism as a term does not exist outside the fevered paranoia of extreme rightwingers such as yourself

It's funny how leftists hate to be called leftists? I always wonder why.

natedogg

[nicky g]

Happy to be called a leftist. I'll even wear a t-shirt saying so if you buy it for me (we leftists only spend other people's money).

M: To characterise Lula as an "extreme leftist" is something of an exaggeration. Most people on the left have been disappointed with just how tame Lula's actions in power have been; he's shaping up as something of a Brazilian Tony Blair in some respects (although he is pushing hard to create a third world international negotiationg bloc; but that's not really a domestic or left-right issue). The same goes twice over for the idea that he's about to engage in some kind of Stalinist purge.