40-80 hand, too weak?

[Steve Giufre]

5 handed 40-80 game. Second time around the table, so I dont have much player information. I have 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in SB. Button open limps, I raise, BB calls, button calls

Flop:K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I bet, BB calls, button calls.

Turn:5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I check, BB checks, button bets, I fold.

[ike]

Ya, too weak. After your offensive preflop raise from the blinds commits them (in their minds) to the pot they'll take one of with a lot on the flop here. Gutshots, ace high, smaller pairs, as well as legitimate straight and flush draws are all likely callers, as well as the hands that beat you. Bet again on the turn to avoid giving a free card. If you're raised probably call down. If theres a raise and a call or a call and a raise you can fold. If you're called, checkcall any river. (I guess checkraise an 8).

[Steve Giufre]

Ike,

I agree the hand was aweful. Would you lead agin with AQ as well? For some reason, I usually find myself betting again on the turn in this spot with a small/ medium pocket pair, but checking hands like nut no pair. The majority of the time I would be ahead, or behind the same amount of times with both hands.

[steveyz]

[ QUOTE ]
Ike,

I agree the hand was aweful. Would you lead agin with AQ as well? For some reason, I usually find myself betting again on the turn in this spot with a small/ medium pocket pair, but checking hands like nut no pair. The majority of the time I would be ahead, or behind the same amount of times with both hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference though is that with AQ, if you are behind, you may have as many as 10 outs, where with 88, if you are behind, you have at most 2 outs. This makes me more likely to check-fold with 88 and fire another barrel with AQ (i.e. it has more value as for the semi part of a semi-bluff).

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]


The difference though is that with AQ, if you are behind, you may have as many as 10 outs, where with 88, if you are behind, you have at most 2 outs. This makes me more likely to check-fold with 88 and fire another barrel with AQ (i.e. it has more value as for the semi part of a semi-bluff).

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe. I think the problem here is that the board is so draw heavy, that I probably shouldnt automatically put one of my oppenents on a better hand. If I could play the hand over again I would have bet the turn and made a judgement call whether or not to play on if I were raised.


Im not sure about betting AQ and folding 88. Some might argue you should bet the hand without outs, and check the hand with outs. But I guess the problem is, with that board, and two flop callers, AQ probably has at most 7 outs, since both the ace or the queen can make someone else's hand very easliy, and the queen might already be dead. 4 1/2 BB's in the pot might be just enough to make me lead again, but I'm not convinced. Honestly, I check fold in this spot a lot with AQ, which is why I brought up the comparison between a hand like that and a hand like 88 in the same situation. 88 looks a lot stronger at first glance, but its probably in worse shape most of the time like you pointed out, since it's unlikely to improve.

[DcifrThs]

its close i think...but it really depends on whats been going on between and among you guys and/or gals.

since its youre 2nd time around the table, you really are in a state of flux. if you plan on playing and are in a good game you need to set a tone here on the turn, imo. you have to state that you are somebody who will follow through and should be feared. bet it one more time on the turn. if called again then check and call seems ok.

i bet it again b/c it may cause a jack to fold thinking he's done for although since you don't know the players you dont know their calling standards. i also find it odd that in a 5 handed 40/80 game on that flop with a raise preflop there was no raise of your bet on the flop. that may mean a setup which you can fold to if you want or call down to set the tone. there is a lot more player dynamics here than in a full game and sometimes -EV plays are necessary to protect yourself from more plays as the session wares on.

how you played it though DOES set a tone and it may be one you want to set: that you are tight on the turn and a bet should be feared. it depends what you want to say with this hand.

personally i think i'd fire 1 more time (and id see a showdown in that case most likely), but checking and folding can't be all THAT terrible either. so long as you capitolize on the image you're setting up.

-Barron

[rory]

I think I fold to a raise on the turn, not call down. Too weak?

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I fold to a raise on the turn, not call down. Too weak?

[/ QUOTE ]

not too weak, just too tight. i have making -EV plays but early in a session i make a point to call down rather than fold if its anywhere near close. 5 handed you want to be bet at WHEN you can fold. if you fold here you won't know if you can or can't for the future. you want to know where you stand and if your opponents think you'll call down they'll tighten their betting and bluff less. having them bluff less in a 5 handed game is great.

-Barron

[Paluka]

I think betting this turn and calling down when you get raised is terrible. I actually think you played this hand fine. There are 2 opponents in the pot. Even when you are ahead your opponents have a ton of outs. I don't think betting the turn is all that bad, but what is your river plan after you get called?

[Ulysses]

I prefer betting again here. However, I'm more inclined to fold when raised than other posters unless the raiser is a chronic bluffer/semi-bluffer. In general, when you get raised on this board holding pocket 8s after raising preflop, I don't think calling down is the best move.