Successful SnG players:Are you usually short stacked when in the $?

[AA suited]

i used to play 20+2, then moved up to 30+3 but found that i've been diviating from Aleo's guide more and more. I never followed the guide exactly to start with, but now when i'm the SB (or BB w/a raise in front), i'm calling with Kx, Ax, any 2 connectors, and any suited to name a few diviations. and i've been losing.

so i went back and started playing Aleo's guide exactly to see how the other extreme is. 16 10+1 games in 2 days. so far:

1st: 1
2nd: 1
3rd: 4
4th: 4

For an ITM of 37.5% and a ROI of ~0%.

all of my 5th-10th place finishes were due to bad beats. (both 10th place finishes i had QQ, raised preflop and someone re-riased me. the guide says go all in when re-raised. both times the opponent has AK and caught his A or K.)

anyway, i usually only win a couple of moderate pots. That allows me to last to the bubble. but i;m usually #3 stack or short stack when i'm there.

since i usually have less than 9BB, any raise by me would take me to 6BB or less, thus i should go all-in instead. if called and i win, then i'm in pretty good shape with 12-18BB. if everyone folds, then the blinds i've just stolen will pay for another orbit.

if nothing comes, and i'm down to 3BB, then i have to go all in with marginal hands. if others fold, then i've just stolen the blinds to last me another orbit.

if i'm called and i win, then i'm up to 6BB. (obviously, if i lose then i'm out.)

Rinse and repeat till i outlast the #4 player.

by following the guide exactly, i find that i'm down to 3BB more often than the way i normally play. Thus more coin flip situations.

Now for my normal play, i also use Aleo's guide but with some tweaks. i find that i'm not down to 3BB as often at the bubble, thus less times i have to go all-in with marginal hands. but my ITM % is about the same. (In my small sample of 16 10+1's, i would have expected a lower ITM% since i'm forced to play marginal hands more often. but i've been lucky with the coin flips.) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

In any case, i'm usually the short stack when i make it to ITM. And my strategy for ITM is the same as bubble. ie: steal blinds to survive, go all in if my bet/raise is 40%+ of my stack, and go all in with marginal hands when i'm down to 3BB. rinse + repeat.

For you successful low limit Party SnG players (10/1, 20/2, 30/3), do you find yourself the #3 stack a majority of the time when you're ITM?

If not, then what are you doing differently than what i'm doing?

THX

[RollaJ]

I am usually one of the lowest stacks when we get to 5-6 handed, that is because I hardly ever gamble in the first 2 rounds and rarely in the third. I then totally switch gears when we get to the $100 BB and I see on PT that is where I win most of my money. That is when people are scared to call 250 as it will criple them, thus it is also when I start raising [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]. Its pretty basic tourney strategy, simmilar to people on the bubble in a big tourney. I only play NL, this might not work as well at limit

[AA suited]

hm..i've had the opposite experience. (but then again it's based on a small sample of 16 10+1's.)

anyway, the guide says at lvl 4+, raise 3bb from any position when you have:
1. 77-AA, AK, AQ
2. AKs-ATs, KQs-KJs, QJs, JTs

if i don't improve on the flop, i'm crippled.
- if there's a 1/2 pot bet or better in front of me, i fold. (correct??)
- if it's checked to me, i bet 1/2 pot. if called/raised, i check/fold to the river.
- now i can bet pot if checked to me, but that usually makes me committed so i would push instead. Is this better than 1/2 pot bet and check/fold to the river???
- As for a large bet in front of me, i could raise and go all-in. is this better than folding?

so far i've lost more chips than i've gained by doing this. but as i said, it's only a sample size of 16.

also, you're only raising 2.5BB? do you find that as effective as 3BB?

thx

[djcolts]

If you are short-stacked (around 600 to 700) and are on level four, and you make a 3XBB raise, even the guide says that since that is more than 40% if your stack, that you should go all-in pre-flop instead.

I find this as a better play for me, anyway, because my post-flop play is probably my biggest weakness right now - so this covers up some holes in my 10+1 SNG game.

[RollaJ]

[ QUOTE ]
also, you're only raising 2.5BB? do you find that as effective as 3BB?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is tried and true, I know Raymer uses this strategy too. Sometimes you will be at a table with people where 2x the BB is sufficient and I might stab at a few of those with 8-10, 67, and ugly hands like that. Very often people just dont want to get involved and you will steal the blinds, otherwise they may call and you out flop them, worst case scenario the y reraise and you fold. Note the reraise when there are 3 or 4 people left is very rare as people are just soooo scared of going out in 3rd or worse yet 4th...... DO NOT play that way, if you lose you lose, but make sure to make the best play to get you first, 1st place is the holy grail in online SNGs and is worth SOOOO much more than 2nd or 3rd.

To give you an idea of my SNG style of play, The best advice I ever read for online SNGs was a year or 2 ago by Russ G of RGP (of all people [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]) He said the best way to play them was to hit post and fold for the first 2 rounds. Of course this is a bit extreme as anyone is better off just playing AA and KK or AKs and going all in pf, but the main idea is to be VERY selective at those stages. Other people have since echoed that statement, Im pretty sure Lee Jones mentioned that in Card Player, and Roy Cooke may have too a few months ago, but I am not positive.

[AA suited]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are short-stacked (around 600 to 700) and are on level four, and you make a 3XBB raise, even the guide says that since that is more than 40% if your stack, that you should go all-in pre-flop instead.

I find this as a better play for me, anyway, because my post-flop play is probably my biggest weakness right now - so this covers up some holes in my 10+1 SNG game.

[/ QUOTE ]

by lvl 4, i've usually won at least 1 moderate pot, so i'm around 1000. a 3BB raise at lvl 4 is 300, so for me it's only 30%. (if you're at 750, then a 300 raise is 40%.) but yeah, i will go all in with 77 at lvl 4 if my stack is below 750, per the guide. (that situation hasnt come up yet in the 16 SnG's i've played so far.)

[AA suited]

Death Valley,

What do u think of my flop play? and what would you have done in those situations?

[Holm Fries]

[ QUOTE ]
I am usually one of the lowest stacks when we get to 5-6 handed, that is because I hardly ever gamble in the first 2 rounds and rarely in the third. I then totally switch gears when we get to the $100 BB and I see on PT that is where I win most of my money. That is when people are scared to call 250 as it will criple them, thus it is also when I start raising [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]. Its pretty basic tourney strategy, simmilar to people on the bubble in a big tourney. I only play NL, this might not work as well at limit

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually as I was reading the initial post I related this to my limit SNG experience. I typically find myself watching the fireworks the first several orbits as people will go to war with marginal hands. Sure, I will sometimes catch cards and either build a stack or get sucked out. However, I usually will enter the final 5 as the 3 or 4th chip stack. Then as the blinds go up, it is easier to use your tight/aggressive style to steal blinds etc. I find then I am able to either build a large stack in these latter rounds so that I have a big advantage heads up or end up going out in 3/4. I don't take second a whole lot. It is sometimes frustrating as you are patient throughout the early rounds of the tourny and at times catch a big hand that gets beat by inferior starting cards. Overall though, I think this strategy gets the most money. As tight/aggressive play usually will.

[djcolts]

OK. I'm often at 600 to 700 at level 4 - so I guess I'm used to all-in or fold time by then.

[AA suited]

[ QUOTE ]
OK. I'm often at 600 to 700 at level 4 - so I guess I'm used to all-in or fold time by then.

[/ QUOTE ]

and what are your results when you push with good cards at this point? do you make more chips than you lose?