The Quest To Figure Out Why I Suck, Part 1

[BrettK]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="C00000">Hero (t725)</font>
UTG (t150)
<font color="C00000">UTG+1 (t450)</font>
<font color="C00000">MP1 (t525)</font>
MP2 (t2425)
MP3 (t1195)
CO (t440)
Button (t1400)
SB (t690)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t50, MP1 raises to t100, MP2 folds, MP3 calls t100, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls t75, Hero calls t50, UTG+1 calls t50.

Flop: (t500) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB bets t50, Hero raises to t625 (All-In), UTG+1 calls t350 (All-In), MP1 calls t425 (All-In), MP3 folds, SB folds.

Turn: (t1950) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players, 3 all-in)</font>

River: (t1950) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players, 3 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t1950

Good? Bad? Thanks

Brett

[Jurollo]

I would say bad, bad, bad. You have two raisers out front of you, I would even think about laying this down preflop with the two raisers out front. If you do decide to play it then going all-in out front is a horrible play because you had the two raisers out front and they could be on higher PP, i would say TT or JJ is likely for 1 of the 2 here and maybe A7 or an AQ/QJ played poorly. A T100-T150 bet should be enough, maybe T250 if you are that scared of overcards or the flush.

[Dominic]

okay, Brett...my analysis of your play....by the way, I don't think it was horrible.

Pre-flop I re-raise to $300-$350 and I bet you get at least the UTG+1 out and maybe even one more out. Of course, I'm going on an average hand and not this specific one, since I don't know what they had! You must re-raise here because in a multi-way pot you're big dog with 99 unless you flop a set, so you want to get it down to either one or two other players at most.

Now, another way is to play like you did, see if you hit the set on the flop - or the flop gives you an overpair like it did this time - and go on from there. Usually, you'll have at least one card bigger than your 99s on the flop and will have to check it, right? Easy to get away from then if someone bets. But this flop is different: against one or two other players, it's a great flop for you; against more than that - with all those callers on pre-flop - I'm thinking it's a strong possibility that someone flopped a set with their baby PP.

You had the right idea to bet here, and with your size stack, all-in is an okay play. But I might have waited for someone else to make a reasonable bet, then come over the top of them...

Also, if you wanted to play the hand all-in, it'd be better to put everyone to the test pre-flop. Your bet on the flop only gets a call if you're beat - where is the value in this bet?? Someone either has a bigger PP than you or they've flopped a set if you get a call. So...make a mini-bet...half the size of the pot. If you get raised, you have a decision to make based on your knowledge of the player doing the raising.

I don't think your play was bad...a little passive pre-flop and a little agressive on the flop...but again, you had the right idea. If someone flopped a baby set to beat your overpair - oh well. Thems the breaks. And you SHOULD still entertain the possibility that the original re-raiser has an overpair, as well...10s, JJ, whatever. It's a possibility, right? And maybe worth playing the flop a little less agressively.

Anyway, I'm no expert and it's just my two cents. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[BrettK]

Okay, so the verdict is that I should have either raised or folded preflop? My thinking was that I was getting 7:1 on a call (8:1 if the last guy came along), which would give me plenty, along with the implied odds, to play it at least to the flop. If I had raised and two of the people had folded, would it have been correct to push against the same flop?
I agree that my flop play was crap. You guys suggested a min-raise, right?
Thanks for the help. I'm blown away by the fact that I'm so much worse on Party than I was on UB, but plays like this certainly contribute, I guess. I'll find some others to post soon.

Brett

[Cry Me A River]

I just like to just point out that with 9 players this is really, really early in a SNG to be making an all-in play with a marginal hand and 2 other players in the pot who are short(ish) stacked so the possibility of doubling or trippling up is going to be very appealing to them.

I'd also like to point out that there's potentially both a flush and straight draw available on the flop. This early in a tourney, unless you're playing in a game with a big buy-in (??) you will get people willing to chase those (particularly shorter stacks like your friends in this pot) so not only do you have to worry about a bigger pocket pair and a flopped set but also getting sucked out.

Personally, I hate mid to small pockets early in a tournament because it's easy to overplay them and they tend to get punished by maniacs and calling stations who'll play with any face card and then pair up on the board. I tend to treat them similarly to suited connectors - Try to see the flop cheaply or ram &amp; jam a little depending on the table/callers, but don't get too attached to them because mostly you're just going to check/fold unless your flop hits.

[Jurollo]

Cry hit my point exactly. You could very well be ahead in this hand on the flop and if this were later in the tourney I would say go for it. But this early it isnt worth putting your whole stack on the line with marginal hands, especially with an attractive flush draw out there for a maniac.

[Cry Me A River]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, so the verdict is that I should have either raised or folded preflop? My thinking was that I was getting 7:1 on a call (8:1 if the last guy came along), which would give me plenty, along with the implied odds, to play it at least to the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

At the risk of David Sklansky taking me out back and beating me with a stick, I think that in tournament play there can be more important factors than pot odds. In particular with all-in situations which tend to mean that if you loose, you're not out a little money as in a ring game, rather you're out of the tournament.

Pot odds is all about long-term thinking - ie: You may loose 4 times out of 5, but that single win is big enough to make up for all those losses. That's very applicable in a ring game where it's cash in your wallet. But in a tournament loosing 4 all-ins means you're out of the tournament 4 times and winning that 1 time in 5 is no guarantee you're going to win the tournament.

So in tournaments pot odds apply in situations that won't put you out (particularly early!) or get you in serious trouble. You don't win any money unless you finish ITM, so pot odds up to that point are rather moot.

[ QUOTE ]

If I had raised and two of the people had folded, would it have been correct to push against the same flop?


[/ QUOTE ]

Only way I see pushing is against a single limper, maybe two limpers if I know they're loose and play crap.

[ QUOTE ]

I agree that my flop play was crap. You guys suggested a min-raise, right?


[/ QUOTE ]

You have a very beatable hand, you want to raise enough to convince people with junk to fold so they don't hit something on the turn/river but not enough so that you're crippled on the very good chance your hand is no good.

[BrettK]

Jurollo, I just noticed that you're from MA. I'm in Worcester.

How about this hand? I don't have the tournament report from Party yet, because I was out soon after this hand and they're still playing. It went something like this:

With the blinds at 15/30, I was dealt JJ on the button. I still had about 800, and stacks were relatively even. UTG raised to 100 and it was folded around to me. I doubled the bet (bad idea?) and both blinds folded. He checked. The flop came Queen rag rag and he checked. What's best?

I ended up betting about 200, which was not quite pot. He pushed. How about now? Obvious fold?

Thanks,
Brett

[Jurollo]

I call the 100, if not even fold (i play tight as hell early), and maybe 100 on the flop to see where you stand. That way when he pushes, give him credit for the Q and you are only out 200, which is what you were out preflop before. In essensce your reraise 100 doesnt do anything, he is not going to fold for the extra 100 as he would be stealing in that early a position. So you are just committing yourself 100 more preflop.

[Cry Me A River]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm blown away by the fact that I'm so much worse on Party than I was on UB,

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're running up against the difference between UB and Party. UB is generally a better, tighter player so they'll give your big raises much more respect and this kind of move (the post-flop push) has a much better chance of causing the other two to fold. On Party, particularly early in a tournament, they'll call you all he way.

The reason you're making the push is to force the other two players to fold, particularly if they have better hands. If they're just going to call then you've lost the reason for your push.

In this type of environment, IMHO, if you're pushing prior to the bubble you're almost certainly making a mistake unless you're short stacked and under pressure from the blinds or you have the nuts or some other monster (there's no such thing as a pre-flop monster early in a tournament) or you have some other very specific reason to do so (ie: You have a read on a player as tight passive and know he'll to fold a good hand to pressure from a big raise). Unless you want calls, do not push.

It's just not a good idea to be in a coin-flip for 9th place!