33 Standard?

Schneids · #1 07-13-2004, 05:38 PM

Yay for more unknowns! Button begins the hand with $68 and I have noted as a 25PFR.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Schneids is BB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, 1 fold, Button raises, 1 fold, Schneids calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Schneids checks, UTG checks, MP checks, Button bets, Schneids raises, UTG folds, MP calls, Button calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Schneids checks, MP checks, Button checks.

River: (7.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Schneids checks, MP bets, Button calls, Schneids...

1. I assume flop check raise == standard. Although I'm considering whether there might be some added benefits of betting out.

2. Turn check?

3. River overcall or fold? Or should a bet out on the river be argued?

spydog · #2 07-13-2004, 06:09 PM

Flop: I like the check-raise here. I hope to get rid of UTG and MP. When MP cold calls 2, I have to suspect he paired his 8, the OESD, or a higher pair.

Turn: If you check-raised the flop, why not lead the turn? Many opponents give up here. If you get raised, then let them take the pot.

River: Based on your read of the button, I think he would call down with A high. That leaves MP. After he sees your check on the turn, I would hope he would bet any 7,8, or straight. Since he didn't, I gotta believe he might be on A high also. I would lean toward a call, with very little confidence.

Joe826 · #3 07-13-2004, 06:18 PM

Hey Schneids,

I've decided to start throwing my opinion out on these hands just to try to learn more for my own games sake, and not necessarily because my opinions are correct heh.

I like the flop C/R, and it looks like MP is scared of trip jacks which is why he checks it through on the turn, but once he sees the third one hit he's convinced nobody has it and his 8 is good so he bets out. This fold sucks, but I think it's right, unless you know MP has the ability to put a move on here with A high.

Nate tha' Great · #4 07-13-2004, 06:31 PM

I don't think the flop raise is standard. I plugged what I believe to be a typical range of limping and raising (from the loose player described) hands into PokerStove with this flop and came up with around 11% equity for your 33. If you can fold out one of the limpers with your check-raise, your equity is still not all that high - around 19%. Even against the LAGgy preflop raiser and nobody else, your equity is just 35%, provided that the hand will go to showdown.

Granted, your actual chance of winning the hand is a bit higher than that, since you will sometimes induce an incorrect fold. But I don't think that's enough to work with, out of position with a hand with reverse implied odds. You're also not likely to be given credit for a J very often here, which might be a reason to play Jx that way, but doesn't help you any when you have 33. So the standard play is to fold.

joeboss · #5 07-13-2004, 06:32 PM

i like the way you played this hand, button calling two cold is awfully scary to bet again on the turn imo especially since t9 hit. Im leaning towards calling the river as buttons play looks like AK or AQ so im not too worried by the overcall

Schneids · #6 07-13-2004, 06:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Even against the LAGgy preflop raiser and nobody else, your equity is just 35%, provided that the hand will go to showdown.

Granted, your actual chance of winning the hand is a bit higher than that, since you will sometimes induce an incorrect fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

But there is close to 5BB's already in the pot. My check raise gives me roughly 5:1 immediate odds. Say I get HU with the button, then it's probably likely the button ends up all in... When he calls my flop c/r, he has $28 left.

In essence, I'm wagering $38 to win a $118 profit or so. That seems like a good bet.

Things only change when I get cold called.

Nate tha' Great · #7 07-13-2004, 06:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Even against the LAGgy preflop raiser and nobody else, your equity is just 35%, provided that the hand will go to showdown.

Granted, your actual chance of winning the hand is a bit higher than that, since you will sometimes induce an incorrect fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

But there is close to 5BB's already in the pot. My check raise gives me roughly 5:1 immediate odds. Say I get HU with the button, then it's probably likely the button ends up all in... When he calls my flop c/r, he has $28 left.

In essence, I'm wagering $38 to win a $118 profit or so. That seems like a good bet.

Things only change when I get cold called.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, it's +EV if there's no chance that the other players will call (or 3-bet). I just think the chance that you'll get cold called is pretty high, especially as a J is going to play pretty often in these games. If there were only one limper, or the flop were like 997, I would like the play a lot better.

Ulysses · #8 07-13-2004, 07:24 PM

I'd bet the turn.

stripsqueez · #9 07-14-2004, 01:40 AM

the devil stole my first comment - auto river call

i think the flop is dodgy but fine

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

Schneids · #10 07-14-2004, 04:01 AM

I made an overcall while not feeling good about it.

MP had QJo for quads.
Button had 9s7s for 7's full.
I was in last place.

Basically, after MP cold called my flop bet, I was ready to give up on the hand unless the turn brought a three. I really think the turn check is the easiest decision of the three streets (but maybe I'm just odd), especially when the
T9 straight gets completed.