QQ, big pot, bad fold?

joker122 · #1 07-11-2004, 02:08 PM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls, Hero caps, Button calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (17.33 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, UTG calls, MP1 caps, Hero calls, Button calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (16.66 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, MP1 bets, Hero folds, Button folds, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 17.66 BB

Results in white below: 
No showdown. MP1 wins 17.66 BB. 

I felt ok about the fold until a few minutes later when I realized there was one hand he could have easily played in this manner that I beat.

Manimal · #2 07-11-2004, 02:38 PM

I think if you're going to fold, do it on the flop, instead of calling two, then folding for one more on the turn.

Other than that, even if you think he has a T, you might be getting implied odds to draw to that miracle Q (depends on how long you can/he would go back and forth raising heads up).

joker122 · #3 07-11-2004, 02:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think if you're going to fold, do it on the flop, instead of calling two, then folding for one more on the turn.

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I calle 2 cold on the flop because of my backdoor flush draw and my 2 queen outs. I admit it was a borderline call though.

EDIT
I was getting something like 16:1 on my call and I had 2 queen outs and a backdoor flush draw which makes me like a 12.4:1 dog (BDFD = 1.5 outs). My backdoor flush might not win but I think that's ok because of the implied odds of hitting a Q. So I think the call was actually pretty clear cut (although it definately felt borderline when I was making it).

Matty · #4 07-11-2004, 03:35 PM

Your'e getting 14.5 to 1 on the flop call, and you're a 22.5 to 1 underdog to hit your Queen.

You have better calling odds for the Queen on the Turn than the Flop.

I'd fold the Flop.

Andy B · #5 07-11-2004, 03:43 PM

I haven't looked at the results. You don't say anything about the button's three-betting standards, but I think against most players, you only have a call before the flop. Your flop play is fine. I think you have a call on the turn. Most players with a Ten in that spot will slow-play and let the pre-flop raisers bet their hand for them if they want to, and then de-cloak on the turn. I'm not saying this is right, and it's not how I usually play. Even if he has a Ten (or 33), you're almost getting odds to try to spike a Queen. Between that and the fact that there's some chance that you have the best hand, I call this one down. If you're going to fold on the turn, you might as well fold on the flop.

joker122 · #6 07-11-2004, 04:27 PM

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Your'e getting 14.5 to 1 on the flop call

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Those are my odds on the immediate call, but when you consider that the other players haven't had a chance to call it's like 16.4:1.

[ QUOTE ]
and you're a 22.5 to 1 underdog to hit your Queen.

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Did you even read my reply to Manimal? If you count a BDFD as 1.5 outs I'm a 12.4:1 dog.

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You have better calling odds for the Queen on the Turn than the Flop.

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I don't have as many outs on the turn than I did on the flop, so no, I don't have better calling odds.

JoeU · #7 07-11-2004, 04:34 PM

Hi Joker.

I think I go into check/call mode on the turn and river. The pot is huge, and he could have easily played JJ the same way. I'd like to know your read on MP1. Does he get out of line, is he LAG, is he tight, etc? If he's tight, it is probably an easy fold, if he's a nut-case, you may have an argument for raising the turn.

For me, unless an A or K hits the turn, I'm calling him down.

Joe

Edit:
Oops, I just saw the button 3-bet here, and MP1 came to life on the flop. I'd like to add exactly what Andy B said; what will the button 3-bet with?

The fold isn't looking quite so bad to me right now, but it really looks like MP1 is very loose calling 2 more cold pre-flop when it gets back to him.

I still think I call this down, but I'm not so comfortable doing it anymore.

Joe

joker122 · #8 07-11-2004, 04:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think I go into check/call mode on the turn and river. The pot is huge, and he could have easily played JJ the same way

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? You think he limps with Jacks, then goes crazy on this flop after it's been capped preflop?

The hand I was thinking of is Asxs.

JoeU · #9 07-11-2004, 05:15 PM

Sorry, I should have fixed this in my previous post too. I said this thinking MP1 was the one capping it with you preflop.

Joe