How to deal with Flush Freaks on Party Poker

[shoesnatcher]

Hi All;
I have been playing on Party Poker for several months now and I frequently run into players at NL $25 and NL $50 tables who will call with their entire stack to when ever two suited cards hit the flop when they hold Axs or Kxs. I frequently limp to see small to medium sized pocket pairs to attempt to hit trips. The problem is that more often than not when I do hit trips, I usually bet the pot or slightly overbet the pot on the flop only to be called by one or more players who are overly aggressive in chasing flushes. Now I know with my trips I am in front of the hand and more often than not statistically I should be the favorite to win the hand. Back to my play, if the turn comes down a blank (third suited card has not come), I go ahead and bet the pot again. Anyway more often than not it seems the third suited card does hit on the turn and the river and I lose...again [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] I have even tried blowing flush chasers out of the pot by betting all in when I flop trips, the problem is I still get called by flush freaks on occasion and lose more often than I think I should. Now maybe it's just bad luck and maybe it 's just poor play on my part, can anyone help me find a way to give them the Party Flush Freaks the shaft? The only other thing that I have considered is raising 4-8x the bb when I have a middle sized pair to force them to fold Axs or Kxs. Please help!

The Shoesnatcher (AKA the shoe giver to flush freaks)
"Give me your shoes!"

[2283]

"betting all in when I flop trips, the problem is I still get called by flush freaks"

this is not a problem. this is the complete opposite of a problem.

"can anyone help me find a way to give them the Party Flush Freaks the shaft?"

yes. bet as much as you think they'll call, especially if you have two pair or a set because they can hit their flush and still lose. you do not want to "blow them out of the pot." trying to get someone to fold a draw because you're worried about him gettin lucky is bad poker, getting outdrawn isnt.

i suggest reading "the theory of poker" by sklansky.

[GoSox]

Let me know if you find the answer !!! I had AA, bet 8xBB and called called by 83. Bet 10xBB with QQ and got called by 84s, hit one club, and called every bet to hit runnerrunner and get the flush. I'm starting to think the players on party really are too bad.

[Guy McSucker]

If you have trips on the flop you're a 3-1 favourite over a flush draw.

Bet enough that they're not getting proper odds, and hope for a call.

Or, if you're a masochist, bet small enough that they're getting proper odds, and hope they folds. They won't, and then you can hate them, yourself, and the cards, for a truly miserable leisure experience.

Sounds like you're playing fine and running bad. It happens. Live with it, or find another pastime/profession.

Guy.

[coltrane]

to reiterate what everyone else is saying, don't judge your play by your results....and the CORRECT play is to bet an amount that gives them improper odds (the larger they'll call, the better), hope they call, and don't pay them off if they hit......over a large sample size, they will always be a loser......

[jdl22]

I think the moral of this story is to make sure you are properly bankrolled. Even in NL playing properly can lead to some wild swings when players make bad calls often. The good side of that is that you will win money from these bad calls in the long run.

Remember that if you have trips you are a 3:1 favorite over someone with a four flush and over cards:
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
twodimes 77 vs AKs board 7s4s9c
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 7s 4s 9c
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7d 7h 746 75.35 244 24.65 0 0.00 0.754
As Ks 244 24.65 746 75.35 0 0.00 0.246


[/ QUOTE ]

So when you are putting your entire stack on the line and getting called down 3 out of 4 times you double up and 1 out of 4 times you lose your stack. That is a gamble you should be willing to make just make sure you have enough money to endure a bad run where you lose more of these than average. If you are properly bankrolled don't worry about it, keep going and eventually it will turn around.

[SkippingGoat]

I hope that you realize that when people call bigger than pot size bets with flush draws that you're making money over the long term. This is especially true at Party Poker where small max buy-ins usually prevent drawers from getting anywhere near the implied odds needed to call such bets. Bottom line, the best way to make money against habitual drawers is to bet really hard on drawing boards and hope they call. Realize though, that they're still only 2-1 against to make a better hand, not exactly lightning striking. That is to say, it's very possible to run into a string of bad beats. Just be confident that you'll come out a winner in the long run.

Other major reasons that you may think you're getting drawn out on with uncanny frequency include:

1) You remember the bad beats much more than the dumb calls that make you money. People are usually so glad that the pot slid their way that they don't take a second to look at the hand history to determine how truly abyssmal their opponents holding was. Alternatively, people can't wait to tell the next poor sap that walks by how some Party idiot drew out on them.

2) When people draw and miss you typically don't know that they were drawing. People will often fold a draw to a big bet on the turn or even a small bet on the river when they miss.

The net effect of these two items is that it feels like people never miss a draw against you and you'll remember these people hitting with crystaline accuracy. The money you win due to missed draws, however, will go largely unnoticed.

[Unarmed]

If you really have trips and are getting taken down then its bad luck. However, if you have top pair or an overpair with many callers the hand that benefits from a bet most is the best draw, not the best hand.

Say you have JJ in the following scenario. We have one guy drawing to the flush, one guy to the OE straight, and two gents with nothing (middle and bottom pair) The best hand at this point isn't the made hand, its the best draw.

I've adjusted my play in insanely aggressive games to reflect that, i.e.: I slow down a bit with a made, but vulnerable hand. I guess I could also just push, but I don't like the swings. If you're getting multiple callers with pot sized bets on a consistent basis, you may not be the favorite with a hand like JJ overpair, or TPTK. But again, on trips I can't see how you're not a huge favorite.

Someone correct me if this logic is flawed.

Result
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=384379
pokenum -h jd jh - 2s ts - 5d 6h - 7h qd - 4d 2h -- 7s 4s 9c
Holdem Hi: 741 enumerated boards containing 7s 4s 9c
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Jd Jh 143 19.30 598 80.70 0 0.00 0.193
Ts 2s 305 41.16 436 58.84 0 0.00 0.412
5d 6h 147 19.84 594 80.16 0 0.00 0.198
Qd 7h 84 11.34 657 88.66 0 0.00 0.113
4d 2h 62 8.37 679 91.63 0 0.00 0.084

[cornell2005]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm starting to think the players on party really are too bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

a player can never be TOO bad!

[Huskiez]

[ QUOTE ]
However, if you have top pair or an overpair with many callers the hand that benefits from a bet most is the best draw, not the best hand.

Say you have JJ in the following scenario. We have one guy drawing to the flush, one guy to the OE straight, and two gents with nothing (middle and bottom pair) The best hand at this point isn't the made hand, its the best draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your example does show that JJ is not the favorite, but instead T2s is. But this assumes that all of them are staying in to see the next two cards. When Q7 and 42 hit two pair or trips, they both make JJ much less of a hand, but don't really destroy the drawing hands. But how often will they stay in when JJ bets a huge amount? Not often, I don't think (maybe in Party).

I think we can say if JJ were to make a huge bet on this flop, that it's likely the Q7 and 42 would fold, but the 65 and T2s would stay in.

JJ v 65 v T2s on 9c 7s 4s Board, Q7 and 42 folded

Change one of the dead cards into a spade and JJ now is the favorite.

Same but Qs instead of Qd

But if we use hands like A4 and K9, hands I can definitely see staying in, and the JJ is not favorite to win.

JJ v T2s v 65 v A4 v K9

The best hands here are the flush draw, followed by the straight draw (barely beating the overpair). In multiway pots, the best hand will often be the best draw as you said.

If I were the JJ I'd probably make a big bet on this flop, but if all of them call (as one can easily expect them too), that doesn't bode too well.