Commerce 10-20 NL hand

Ulysses · #1 07-05-2004, 06:29 AM

The 25-50 game just broke and two guys from that game sit down in the 10-20. They both buy to cover the table. These guys aren't folding pre-flop. They limp in a fair amount or open anywhere from $60-120. I've been playing pretty nitty and have been pushed off a number of hands, especially by one of the guys who is very aggro and clearly thinks I'm terrified to get the money in the middle. On to the hand.

Aggro guy above limps UTG. Other 25-50 player limps on the button. I'm in the SB ($2,000) w/ KK. I make it $150. Both guys call.

Flop 5d 6h 7d

I bet $400. Aggro guy calls. He's perfectly capable of calling here w/ any two cards, planning to take the pot away from me on the turn. Other guy folds.

Turn (5d 6h 7d) 6d

$1270 in the pot. I have $1450 left.

What's your plan for the rest of the hand?

tdomeski · #2 07-05-2004, 06:34 AM

Do you hold the King of diamonds????

If you are holding the King of diamonds I think it's an automatic check raise all in. . . .Give him a chance to bluff at the pot, if he's got a straight you have a ton of outs. .if he's got the non nut flush you've got a ton of outs. . . .Hell, if he's got 5's full you've got outs. . . .

If you bet out he may just fold. .I think the check raise is the best play because it allows your opponent to make a mistake.

Now. .if you don't have the King of diamonds. .Well. . .Push and pray????

Looking forward to others comments and results.

Ulysses · #3 07-05-2004, 07:00 AM

I have red KK.

AnyutaDva · #4 07-05-2004, 09:50 AM

There are two things that worry me about your situation in this hand. Firstly your opponent isn't going to be surprised by your hand. If he views you as a timid player, your out of position raise means he is probably putting you on AK, AQ or a big pair. So he knows that barring flush draws this flop probably hasn't helped you any.

Secondly, given the hand he is putting you on why hasn't he raised you on the flop? If he had a draw especially if he has a pair along with it he is probably going to try to bully you off your hand with the knowledge that he has outs if he is behind.

So he is either ahead of you on the flop, or he has called with next to nothing hoping to attack a scare card. If you bet on the turn you only get called if you have walked into a big hand. So I would check on the turn. When he bets on the turn, assuming that he pushes you all in, I'd err on the side of folding. Obviously you are in great shape if has called just to bluff you. But given your out of position raise he knows there is a chance that you have a very big pair, and if he was a good agressive player ( and I am aware that you haven't said whether he was any good or not ) he probably is going to think twice before trying to get any player no matter how timid to put down what could be a pair of bullets.

So I think the chances are he has got his hand on the flop, and I think it is a made hand not a draw. You have quite a few outs against a made straight, but even then you won't be getting your odds. If he has flopped top and bottom pair then the turn has actually compromised his hand, but any other combination of two pair or trips and you are in trouble.

I think it is a horrible situation to be in against that type of player. If I am up against that type of player I want to have baby pairs and suited connector's because I want to be able to raise with hands where I can hit flops that he is going to try and bully me off. I always dread it when I pick up a big pair out of position, precisely because his type of situation often arises.

AcesKracked · #5 07-05-2004, 10:36 AM

Knowing what you know about this guy it sounds like he could be holding any 2 cards and my guess would be he has 2 pair or better. But I would have a hard time laying down. I think I check and prepare to fold if he puts me all in or I push in and hope for the best. My casino experience with these type of guys is there is nothing they enjoy better than seeing the flop w/ rags, hoping to hit a monster, and take out AA or KK. So what happend, the suspense is killing me.
AcesKracked

fsuplayer · #6 07-05-2004, 10:52 AM

I would do whatever it is I think will put the most money in the middle as you are either way ahead, or have lots of outs if you arent.
I dont like check raising bc you said that aggro guy has already pushed you off a bunch of pots, let him do that. CR'ing may put up red flags in his head and he may check a hand that you are not only ahead of, but one that he may have raised with on the turn.
Bet out a # like $500-900 (which ever looks more like a scared turn bet) and then reraise all in. You have outs to any of his possible holdings (except 55), and I dont plan on laying this down on the turn, so I would rather get the money in on the turn, than have my CR fail and be subject to go through the whole process again on the river.

Hope it worked out.

BTW Why are you in so short? I would imagine that you are better than the other players, why only 100 BB's?

FsuPlayer

turnipmonster · #7 07-05-2004, 10:55 AM

you'd much rather see the 7 or 5 paired on the turn, eh?

that's a bad flop for KK, and it's hard to put him on a hand. in this situation, if you're going to play, I think you'll win the hand a lot more often checkraising allin on the turn than pushing and getting called.

the problem is there's not a lot I can put him on that you can beat here, other than any two random cards. you have outs against almost anything, but not very many. I hate saying this because it's not really good analysis, but you check and read him. if he wants you to call, fold, if he's bullying you around then put it in the middle.

the only play I really don't like here is betting out, because I think if you get called/raised you will be behind more often than not, and if you underbet you are committed anyways.

personally I like to pick spots where I have a ton of outs to play back against someone trying to push me off my hand, but you can't always be that selective.

for this hand, I think check anything (raise,fold,call) is ok, I think betting is -EV. personally I lean towards check folding, but sometimes you have to take a stand and play back. hope it worked out!

--turnipmonster

fsuplayer · #8 07-05-2004, 11:01 AM

My post was implying that you were planning to play this hand through. If you are unsure of whether to continue then, yes, as Turnip said, check and a read may be the best option. But if you are trying to get the money all in, then underbet reraise might be best in this case.

fsuplayer

Michael Davis · #9 07-05-2004, 11:02 AM

I don't play no limit well, but the advice offered by some others sounds incredibly weak. Given your description of the opponent and what he thinks of you, you must be good here a vast majority of the time, and have outs to win when you aren't good. Folding in this situation makes me vomit.

I think you need to take the line that gets the most money in the middle but secures your chances of winning when you have the best hand, as there are still straight draws that your opponent could be holding.

You could check the turn. If your opponent checks, I think this is a disaster, because now you have given him a free card to perhaps hit a garbage draw, or represent hitting a garbage draw with the right card on the river. Also, if he checks behind, I'm liable to think he has the goods, since your signal of weakness on the turn, plus his idea that you are weak, should lead him to make a bluff bet on the turn. If he checks, I'm now scared.

If your opponent really thinks you are a chump, how about making a weak, chump-type scared bet that screams "I have something but I'm afraid you might have me beat?" Of course, these bets often signal monsters, so maybe that's not right either. No limit confuses me.

I think your best move is to check. Your opponent will make a significant bet and you can check-raise all-in to push out a possible straight draw. Again, if your opponent checks the turn, it is time to get scared. I really have no idea what to do on the river if this happens.

Given your description of the opponent, there is no way you can back down with Ks here.

-Michael

turnipmonster · #10 07-05-2004, 11:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Folding in this situation makes me vomit.

[/ QUOTE ]

drawing thin on the turn vs. a full makes the rest of us vomit [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. I am not saying he has to fold, I am saying he has to make a read. the scariest thing his opponent can do in this situation is check behind.

--turnipmonster