To go pro or not, and where?

[Robk]

Since you apparently don't like either do whatever you think will make you more money so you can get out as fast as possible.

[brad]

youre young answer simple.

play higher limits (20/40 - 80/160)

play big tournaments

keep working

if you manage to win, especially big money (say from tournament) , invest it somewhere where u cant spend it.

keep working and use that money to fund poker.

when u need a break stop playing poker and keep working.

when u get vacation time from work say week or two off dont play poker just do nothing.

[Lou Krieger]

Keep your job for at least a year. Save your money by living below your means -- as far below your means as you can. Save everything abouve what you need for necessities.

The only way to really decide where you want to live and play poker is to visit each locale -- Atlantic City, Las Vegas, Mississippi, Southern California -- and give it a try.

Once in your job for a year, take a 6-month leave of absence or quit it altogether if you think that's the only way to do this. Then visit each potential site and play there. Make your decision that way. But before you do, you ought to have saved at least $15,000 as a playing stake for $20-$40 as well as additional money to live on during your tiral period. Poker is not unlike other small entrepreneurial businesses that fail from undercapitalization. If you are not sufficiently capitalized, you will not be giving yourself the chance you deserve.
_____
Lou Krieger
Raise your game with Lou Krieger, author of "Poker For Dummies" at Royal Vegas Poker.com
http://www.royalvegaspoker.com/lou

[squiffy]

The vast majority of successful people achieve success through hard work, patience, and paying their dues. And as far as I can tell there is no escaping this fact. I work as a lawyer and make a decent living, but certainly do not love my work and would quit in a heartbeat if I hit the lottery.

Sometimes I dream of playing poker or chess full time, not that I have the talent to do that. But from what I can tell, even if you do have the talent, there are a lot of drawbacks to playing poker or chess professionally, that is swings in your bankroll, the pressure of having to win tournaments, etc.

I wonder if any activity, even a fun activity, ceases to be fun if you have to do it for a living.

They say variety is the spice of life. I know when I play a lot of poker or a lot of chess over a long period of time, things start to get stale and the game starts to lose its attraction.

I could be wrong, but after 38 years on this earth, it seems to me that for 99.999% of the population, you need to work to survive, and regardless of what specific field you choose, law, business, engineering, medicine, etc. -- work is work is work. There are pressures and hassles and headaches. And getting to the top of your game takes, time, effort, patience, luck, people skills, experience, study, etc.

But I would say you should definitely give it a shot. You might like it and you might have the natural talent for it. And you might become a great success. On the other hand, if you don't succeed, at least you will never look back with regret and wonder what might have been.

I hated working in large law firms when I first started out and actually quit and went into teaching, thinking I would love it. But teaching was just as frustrating, if not more frustrating than the law, and paid only about half as much money for just as much work and just as much, if not more, frustration.

After 5 years in teaching, I went back to the law, and have finally found a niche in the field of law that I enjoy and that suits my personality. So I would encourage you to think hard about fields that would interest you and to try out a couple of fields, while you are young. But be sure to do some careful research and try to narrow things down to the fields that appeal to you the most.

One clue is looking back on your own resume -- the classes you enjoyed and excelled in, the clubs and hobbies you have had, the kind of work your parents do. If you come from ten generations of doctors, lawyers, generals, actors, football players, chances are good (though far from 100% certain) that you probably have the genes to excel in that field.

I guess my concern is that your attraction to poker, while understandable, is probably not enough to base a career decision on.

I think if you have a degree in computer science, the most logical thing to do is to pursue a career in computers and take poker as a very serious hobby. If you are a programmer maybe you can even work on computer related programs for a gaming company or a gambling company. That way, you have a solid career to fall back on and you can still fund your poker playing. You can gradually start to play at larger and larger limits and if you keep enjoying success at poker, you can always turn pro later.

One danger would be if you overestimate your poker playing ability and devote too much time, money, and energy to a field that may or may not be promising.

My fear is that poker playing is like chess playing and professional sports. I think to make a decent living you have to be incredibly good and make a lot of sacrifices to get there. Whereas I think even an average doctor or lawyer can make a very comfortable living. Does that make sense? Many professions offer comfortable salaries and a steady living even to average members. It may be boring, but its nice to have a steady income, a car, a home, savings, etc. and still be able to play poker and chess on the side and have some fun.

[vic]

"If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much space. You may as well jump off anyway!"

I saw this on a shirt once, and it made me laugh and laugh. Life is too short. You seem to be mature enough to make this decision. Whatever the outcome, you will survive it.

I left my IT job 6 months after graduating school to remodel homes. That didn't work out as well as I had hoped, so now it's time to move on to the next thing. What that will be I have no idea, but that's the point. This is an adventure. You are smart enough to know that if you made the wrong choice you can get training in something else and move on. Have no regrets.

[2ndGoat]

Once again, my deepest gratitude to those who have offered advice. I think every post has provided a different angle to consider... and it's definitely a trip to have a respected author giving me advice!

Thanks to those that suggested I do neither my current job or poker full-time, as I havn't really explored any fields other than computers or poker... I'm not going to be flying jet planes, as one post suggested, but perhaps something equally unconventional. Thanks also to those that suggested combining both, programming for a gaming company or the like. Or maybe I can take care of the Borgata's monitors occasionally displaying a windows error message, lol. They've currently got an entry-level opening for an IT guy on their website... hmm...

I was back in Atlantic City this weekend (2nd in a row), and still haven't had a bad session, which would give me a touch more information about how I'd handle the day-to-day beats. I lost $250 in one 5 hour session playing 10/20 last night, but had two of the most gorgeous girls I've ever seen playing on either side of me for a good part of it, so I was in pretty high spirits regardless. (Solid players, too! I told the one on my right if she check-raised me I'd fall in love.)

Something I realized on my own while this thread has been active... I still need to work on my game a lot. I'm quite confident I could take 10/20 at the Borgata for a BB/hr, given my success at slightly tougher games online over a fairly long haul. I've played 15/30 twice, only as a 90 minute exploration both times, and the game ranged from very very juicy (2 players that didn't understand what blinds were or how structured betting worked) to quite tough (5-6 players at the table playing as well as me or better). 10/20 has even gotten a little tough in spots. Ideally I'd like to enter a professional career at 15/30 and move up to 20/40 as soon as practical, and I don't know that I'd make any more money (perhaps less) at 20/40 as I would at 10/20, given my current skills.

Per suggestions and RoR calculations, I'm going to try to put away $15000 over 10 months or so. I expect roughly half of it to come from poker. I'll be living at home for at least a couple more months, which is going a long way towards padding my checking account. In the mean time, I'll be giving my current job every chance to regain my interest, and also looking at what else is out there.

I'll also pledge to make 3-5 hours a week for actual study rather than play; I've been slacking off the last 6 months. I'll use the time to reread the classics (including all the 2+2 stuff, of course) that many more times over, and read some more of the controversial books (with grains of salt on hand) to see what good points they offer (Ciaffone/Reuben and a more in-depth study of super/system, for example)... and I think by reading over those books with a fine-tooth comb to find either fallacies or concepts that don't show up in the games I play, I'll improve as much as I will by by integrating the solid spots of these books into my game. I'll also do a lot of independent thought on hypothetical situations or interesting recent hands played. In addition, I think learning stud would be time well spent... playing hold'em and omaha/8 still only gives me 70% of the games in a card room to work with, and when 15/30 hold'em gets tough, it would be quite a coup to occasionally find a good 15/30 stud game to sit in rather than just a slightly easier 10/20 hold'em table.

After a year, I can then:
-Stay with the current job in DC area
-Get a new job in the DC area
-Get a job in mid/south jersey area, playing live poker as a serious hobby/borderline part-time job
-Get a job in a casino, either in an IT capacity or simply as a poker dealer, maybe part time so I could play cards for 25-65% of my income.
-Play cards full time, starting at 15/30 and the occasional trip to 10/20 to fry a fish or escape the tougher nights.
-Something completely different

Note that I've pretty much decided that if I moved somewhere to play poker either full- or part-time, it would be in Atlantic City, given the friends and family I already have up there. I'd probably take a trip to Vegas at some point, as well as check out SoCal, but I'd need a very solid reason to set up shop outside of AC.

Having 15k put away at the age of 22 will not be a bad thing, regardless... happily I'm about a fourth of the way there already. If I stick it out in DC metro area I can pay off my car loan and have a big enough chunk left for a recreational bankroll. If I go to Jersey, I'll have plenty of startup funds for most any new situation I'd choose (save the extremely outside chance of starting up a business), even if it's not centered on poker.

That's all of the stuff I can decide with my brain. What my heart is saying right now is that I want make my story an interesting one, and not work 40 years just for a nice car, nice house, and nice retirement. I feel myself attracted to a life where my past jobs are fun to remember and talk about, and one where I won't look back at 50 and have a exceedingly acute mid-life crisis because of regrets over chances not taken. As it stands now, if someone asks what do I do for a living, I don't even feel like saying anything more than "computer stuff." I got out of college before I turned 21... hopefully I can afford to do something whimsical for a couple years and go back to safety later on if I want. In the end, if my mind determines poker is a viable option, my heart is what would send me to it. On the other hand, I may find a niche at my current company that satisfies mind and heart both, and if I can stay there with no regrets, that's great too.

For now, I've got a deadline. By August 25th, 2004, I'll have my 15k set aside, and I'll come to a conclusion about all this. I also have some other goals, like working out regularly, which I will have met by then, unless sober judgement (and not apathy!) modifies my plans. Why August 25th? That'll be my one year anniversary at my current job. I'd appreciate it if any of you felt like checking up on me via PM between now and then to keep me accountable for this committment.

Cheers,
2ndGoat

[Leonardo]

I say take a shot at it. I am in the same situation as yourself, completed a Comp Sci degree, and hate it. I have no intention of working in the field, I am taking one shot at poker, with the view of getting into some kind of business(Bill Gates doesnt have a degree, right?). If everything falls through, go take a postgrad degree in something you like (many areas of business give the same kind of excitement (more actually) than poker), then go get a good job or start your own business. You are only 22 for gods sake. If I were u, i would concentrate on being able to play online for large periods of time. There is a lot of money to be made there. Just dont start playing two tables at once in the higher limits, it is trouble.

[SittingBull]

qualify for social security. While u are working,save,save save.etc...until u no longer need to depend upon poker for a living. THEN play poker as long as u want.
In your golden years,u want to at least qualify for social security and medicare benefits. Ten years of work should do it!
Make sure u have your own home --mortgage free. Be able to ALWAYS pay cash for a decent auto.
Have NO dependents EXCEPT yourself. U want your overhead to be as small as possible. Be inclined to do your shoping at the thrift stores and always look for bargains.
Yes,it IS a lonesome life UNLESS u have a friend who will tolerate your needs. One who is capable of being alone for certain # of HRS in the wee morning of the night. This person is RARE!
The MOST difficult part about the game of poker is to have an adequate Psychological bankroll to withstand a loss of several thousand dollars at ANY given session in the higher limit games--AND THEN traveling back home while absorbing this lost!
Playing poker to supplement one's income is great! However,depending upon it for a living generally sucks!
Poker WILL break your heart several times over!
U are obviously an intellegent individual. But are u wise??
HappyPokering, [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
SittingBull

[Tommy Angelo]

I always give the same suggestion when this comes up.

JUMP!

As to where, shhh, don't let Lou K. know that the best of everything is in No Cal.



Tommy

[2ndGoat]

I asked for comments from you all 5 months ago (see above) and received what I deemed extraordinarily useful advice- all of which seemed to contradict the post before! (see below)

I thought I'd provide an update on my progress in this area. I figure some of you might like to keep score from home, and this also seems a good way to take inventory for myself.

-I hate work.
I still hate work. I've gone from the "sampler"-type rotation program where I spent 6 weeks in several areas to a full-time position. Unfortunately, I got caught in a bait-and-switch. I wanted to get into computer security, which I've done. Unfortunately, instead of evaluating new products, doing risk assessments, responding to attacks, etc., which semed to be where I was headed, I got stuck in the group that resets passwords (translation: bleugh!). I'll be there for at least year (if I stay), and after tempering half-promises with sober analysis, it appears I could get into the interesting stuff within 2 years.

-I need to see exactly how much poker I can handle.
I've been playing quite a bit lately and doing very well online- when you add prop money to playing two 5/10 or 10/20 tables, and can really add up. Waiting on another prolonged bad streak to see how I feel then. During the last one, about 8 months ago, I had a somewhat shorter bankroll, and somewhat more pressure.
I took a week-long trip to Vegas and absolutely loved it, but again, that's just 45 hours of poker. I found that I really enjoyed seeing similar faces from day-to-day.
I've also been making my way to AC with some regularity, always enjoying it and thinking "why the hell do I have a job instead of doing this" even when I'm having a losing session.

-I need to work on my game
I feel I've improved in the last 6 months, particularly in dealing with semi-skilled players, the would-be-winning-a-tiny-bit-if-not-for-the-rake types. Whereas a year ago I only felt truly comfortable at a table full of fish/semi-fish (and possibly a couple skilled players that I would just try to avoid), I'm now feeling a lot more comfortable with extracting profit from a wider range of skills and styles. I believe this is a result of moving up in limits and seeing slightly tougher tables. When I was in Vegas 2 weeks ago, I felt very much on top of the 15/30 hold'em game at the Bellagio, even on the weekdays.

-I need a bankroll
I pledged to have 15000 saved but August 25th. I think I'll meet that goal. However, I'll pay off my car loan (which will also allow me to lower my auto insurance coverage) and rebuild back to 15000 before considering "the plunge." I'll be carrying around 50k in student loans for quite some time. I'm in the process of consolidating them and extending the loan term out to 25 years- the plan to to invest the extra amount made available by lower monthly payments, but it'll also be available for expenses if really necessary. For the record, since I'd still play online a good bit, which yields doubled EV because of prop pay (and the prop pay is zero-variance), I believe that 500 big bets is nearly rock-solid secure.

-I need to study 3-5 hours/wk
I've been reading and thinking a good bit, but not 3-5 hours regularly. More like 3-4 hours/week 2 weeks/month. I think that's nearly sufficient, though I'll try to up it a little bit.

-I want to learn stud
When playing live I've been sitting at stud tables if my name comes up on the stud wait list before the hold'em one. If the game is good I'll stick around. Fun game, and one that I'd like to continue to develop, if gradually.

Estimated Probability that I will have quit my job for poker within the next 18 months: 65%

As always, further comments very much welcome and appreciated.

2ndGoat