Flop decision poll

[kiemo]

two overcards, no redraws, large field, out of position.

Check without a specific read on the table.

[Entity]

I just took another look at it, and realized there were 3 coldcallers preflop. WTF?

Yeah, I agree. Check/call one, check/fold two.

Rob

[slimpikkens]

[ QUOTE ]
I do a lot of autobetting after a pfr, but this is one I would just as soon get away from. I'm not running all 6 opponents out of this hand. I'll call one bet and fold the turn unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]


Autobetting is the key word here. I've just started to work on this lately....I used to nearly always bet out after I raised preflop. Now I'm trying to identify situations where betting out into nasty boards or large fields could be leading me to Leaksville.

Interesting how 'check' is clearly the vocal majority but still in the minority pollwise. Maybe a lot of people are autovoting [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[DeuceKicker]

I haven't read SSH yet, so I can't say whether this is illustrated there.

I think this is one of the instances where a bet may not be automatic. I wouldn't worry a whole lot about the straight draw. I wouldn't worry a whole lot about the flush draw. I wouldn't worry much at all about the three cold-callers (see it too often). But add them all together and you've got something to worry about.

While I think most of the reasons given for checking are valid, there are also reasons for betting.

(1) I think you'll get come of the cold-callers with something like Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] to fold. The draws aren't going anywhere, but I'd hate to have them miss only to lose to a rivered Q that might have folded on the flop.

(2) There's also something to be said for maintaining aggression. If you're willing to check/call, why not bet out? Particularly after you raised pre-flop, you can almost expect LP to bet his gutshot just because you've shown weakness, which leaves you with little idea where you really stand. If you bet and are raised, however, it's much easier to let it go.

(3) Building and/or capitalizing on table image. If your opponents sense that you only play the better hands they are more willing to give you credit for a high pocket pair. Also, they know you're not going to let them draw out cheaply.

Not sure if this is because of table image or not, but I often get most of the cold-callers to fold the flop. Unfortunately it often takes a turn bet to get out the stragglers, and I wouldn't really want to put in a turn bet unimproved here.

Anyway, I think primarily because of (2) I'd still bet out, though I can see the arguments foe checking. Just think how you'll get paid off if you show down this hand and next time you have A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] with the same flop.

[SomethingClever]

I haven't finished SSH, but doesn't Ed say somewhere that you shouldn't try to bluff the unbluffable?

6 players with this board at .5/1 on Party? Unbluffable.

Check, call one small bet and see the turn.

Unimproved, you probably have to fold the turn.

[Piiop]

Betting here is a bad idea. Just because you raised preflop doesn't mean you have to put any more money in the pot.

[Vagrant]

In ssh doesnt sklansky say if you are willing to call a bet it is better to bet yourself?

[detruncate]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I agree. Check/call one, check/fold two.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my plan. A nice side benefit is that it often identifies the likely turn aggressor, which should prove helpful when one of your outs falls.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
In ssh doesnt sklansky say if you are willing to call a bet it is better to bet yourself?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that principle holds more on the river. There are many a situation where you would call one but it isn't a good idea to bet one yourself.

[detruncate]

The "Playing Overcards" section discusses the sorts of things you should be thinking about when you're deciding whether to bet a whiffed flop. The point you put forth is one factor, but it's not the only one... or even the central one. If it's a close decision, leaning toward aggression is certainly a good policy. I'm not sure this situation qualifies though.

You're unlikely to significantly improve your chances of winning on this flop by betting. You also might well be raised, and you'll pretty much have to call. It's a risk vs reward thing, and I think the balance is in favour of caution.