Bad luck or did I walk into a trap? - Page 2

#11 10-13-2005, 06:45 PM

raise pre-flop--this is a good hand!
3-bet the flop and call a cap. you have TP2K.
..here is where we may wonder if MP2 has a big set a strong draw, or has us dominated with AK. If you would have raised pf, and he 3-bet, you may consider that you are drawing dead here. A read on villain is important too--does he raise pf with A8? Is he aggressive with small pairs on a big-card board?
If you check/call on the turn, you should lead on the river, or check/fold.

Based on the action and no reads, you should probably be folding that 3-bet on the river. I dunno...

RiverDood · #12 10-13-2005, 06:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hey everyone, i'm pretty new to the game and i was just wondering if i could get some input on my play in this hand. Should i have folded on the turn?

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, MP2 raises, 5 folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.40 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, MP2 raises, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.70 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.70 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.70 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's focus on the river play. You got excited because the A improved your hand. But you didn't think about what the impact was on Villain's hand. This is an important concept when it comes to playing the river.

Go back in your mind to Villain raising the flop. Clearly he's not afraid of someone playing Ax. He thinks he's got a better hand. What could it be? There are eight possibilities:

--AJ and he has top two pair
--AT and he has decent two pair
--JT and he has bottom two pair
--KQ and he has the straight
-- JJ and he has trips
-- TT and he has trips
-- AK and he has the best possible pair/kicker
-- he's a maniac and is trying to buy the pot with an inferior hand. Unlikely but faintly possible. Let's assume this is the classic 10% possibility.

You're behind in almost all cases, but you have some outs -- mostly involving a K or a Q. It's worth calling the flop and calling down the turn and river.

By the time the flop action is done, you should realize that an A is not a card you really want to see. If he has trips, it gives him a full house. If he has a straight, you still don't catch up. If he has two pair, in most cases he upgrades to a full house. Even if he's playing AK, you don't catch up. Only if he has JT is an A the card that will win it for you.

So when an A comes at the river, check/call. Any more aggression than that is almost certainly giving him money.

In general, try to alert yourself to cases where cards that improve your hand DO NOT improve your chances of winning the pot. You're probably already alert to this on cards that pair you up but complete someone else's flush draw. Add these sorts of hands to the list.

Shillx · #13 10-13-2005, 06:53 PM

That flop is just terrible. Fold it. Whoops thought it was 2 bets to you on the flop. Ugh I'm doing nothing but calling on that board and I would highly consider folding somewhere if he keeps betting.

Brad

I know nothing about .05/.10 but the concept behind going crazy on this board is just terrible. Maybe getting stoopid on this board is a good way to optimize earnings at this level, but if you want to get better you can't be bet/3betting this flop and expecting to drag it unless a king comes and bails you out.

lautzutao · #14 10-13-2005, 06:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That flop is just terrible. Fold it. Whoops thought it was 2 bets to you on the flop. Ugh I'm doing nothing but calling on that board and I would highly consider folding somewhere if he keeps betting.

Brad

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Because with the PF Raise only thing he could have is AK, 2pair, or a set on this board?

#15 10-13-2005, 07:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That flop is just terrible. Fold it. Whoops thought it was 2 bets to you on the flop. Ugh I'm doing nothing but calling on that board and I would highly consider folding somewhere if he keeps betting.

Brad

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Because with the PF Raise only thing he could have is AK, 2pair, or a set on this board?

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I think folding is bad, but I don't see how you guys don't view this as WA/WB.

Shillx · #16 10-13-2005, 07:09 PM

I think folding is bad

We are getting < 3:1 to calldown here. Are we going to drag this thing 25% of the time????

Brad

This is an honest question that I don't have an answer to. It kinda sounds like a "WTF are you thinking" post but it isn't.

Catsailor · #17 10-13-2005, 07:14 PM

Grunch
Raise pf,that will change the hand. He might be raising w KQ. You have a good hand. You're behind AT AJ KQ JJ TT. I call it 2Ao,4Ko,1 1/2Qo for 7 1/2o total. I might 3bet flop & see if he caps. Don't raise riv. You may be behind.

bozlax · #18 10-13-2005, 07:34 PM

I hate the hand...it sucks.

That said, I agree with Brad. This is a classic, "you're effed no matter what," hand. And, as has been pointed out a few times, a preflop raise might've made all the difference.

QTip · #19 10-13-2005, 08:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That flop is just terrible. Fold it. Whoops thought it was 2 bets to you on the flop. Ugh I'm doing nothing but calling on that board and I would highly consider folding somewhere if he keeps betting.

Brad

I know nothing about .05/.10 but the concept behind going crazy on this board is just terrible. Maybe getting stoopid on this board is a good way to optimize earnings at this level, but if you want to get better you can't be bet/3betting this flop and expecting to drag it unless a king comes and bails you out.

[/ QUOTE ]

In these .5/.10 games, I believe a capped PF round is rather common. I've only seen a couple dozen hands though, so I'll leave it to the original poster to say what a PF raise generally means there.

This being said, we know nothing of the orignal raiser. Because of this fact, I liked betting the flop and giving the raiser a chance to face the field with 2.

However, I don't see going nuts on the flop with a 3 bet, so I was curious to hear bolax's thoughts on that as well. As mentioned here, our hand is not that robust given a "normal" EP raising range.

The river is a fine example here though of a seeming improvement to your hand that really didn't change much of anything.

bozlax · #20 10-13-2005, 09:08 PM

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However, I don't see going nuts on the flop with a 3 bet, so I was curious to hear bolax's thoughts on that as well.

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My important point, IMO, was that if Hero had raised PF, been 3-bet, and then donked the flop, he'd have a much better idea where he was when Villan raised the flop. I'd still call down, but it's much uglier.

Against an unknown at .05/.10 without having shown any aggression previously, I don't think Hero can automatically put Villan on a hand range that beats him, here (I'd say he could have all the way down to 77, QJs, AT [hidden outs!], etc.), and I'd 3-bet the flop to find out exactly how much he loves his hand.