Ho Hum

[skp]

BTW, a stronger case can be made for betting when you are in early position as now the cost of a mistaken bet is only 1 big bet (as presumably, if you get raised when you bet, that chap whould have bet if you check). But on the button, the cost of a mistaken bet could be two bets (i.e., obviously, I am disregarding what might happen on the river when you improve).

[JimmyV]

I agree intensely with Coilean's play here, although I raise the river because I have the best hand and because I think Jacks might call and worse eights will certainly call and perhaps three-bet.

I'm horrified that anyone would suggest betting with second pair last to act on the turn into a field this large, passive, and apparently loose, and a pot getting this large. This is a textbook example of a free-card play; if the turn hadn't been a heart a case is to be made but I think you're trailing 70% of the time and should take a look at the river and probably call a single bet if you don't improve. There's just no way you buy this pot with a turn bet, and mere overcards to your 8 will call 65% of the time -- so you dislike non-heart K's, Q's, T's, and maybe nines on the river ('anti-outs') equally whether you bet the turn or not. But any river besides those (say) ten cards gives you an easy river call and a good shot at the pot; many heart overcards get you three river bets from up to two other people.

Elysium is off his rocker today. Well played, Coilean.

The preflop raise I think is correct on the button, incorrect perhaps as late as the cutoff. The flop raise is perfect poker!

JimmyV


PS. The concept skp mentions -- 'check with outs, bet without' -- is one I've used far more than anything else I've read in the last eighteen months, and it's served me extremely well (especially in fast-paced online play).

[Rick Nebiolo]

Andy,

I'm playing in games where the raise in back doesn't help you take as much control. I still stand by wanting more or fewer opponents otherwise I like limping behind limpers with this speculative hand (do I sound like Mike Caro here?).

I agree that the flop raise will sometimes allow Coilean to get to the river for one extra small bet so maybe I should be thinking of this more often.

Regarding Coilean's other post, I'd love to read more of the forum but I'm in my underwear, should be at work, need to get in the shower, have a tourmament thread going, and havn't figured out what to get Mom and Dad for Christmas now that Mom said no to my brother Steve's digital camera idea (we were going to chop on it) even after he got them to spend $3600! on an upgraded Dell computer when all they previously used there old computer for was email and simple stuff.

Regards,

Rick

[andyfox]

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Rick Nebiolo]

skp,

If you get checkraised you at least know to lay down two pair on the river and should make a bigger pot when you make your flush. Of course the position of the checkraise matters, although I don't see players making the checkraise for value with a big draw on the turn.

Regards,

Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

In the unlikely case anyone above me at the Bike is reading this I gave them a two thirteen hour days this week [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Rick Nebiolo]

skp,

I agree but you can't disregard what may happen on the river when you improve. Drawing to the nuts is huge.

I'll have time for one more post in after my shower and before work. You guys who make money (like Andy who makes money in his sleep) or get paid while posting make my jealous [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

~ Rick

PS Now I'm starting to wonder what Coilean thinks of his play.

[elysium]

hi jim
for coil, the check-down means a refresher course. even the good players need a refresher every once in a while. we're not here to tell each other how great we are. for coil, not betting the turn is a huge error.

the reason i mention dan hanson here is because rarely do you find something out there that compliments hfap and top, without stepping on the basics. his free-card theory was pretty cool. but i'm sure if he were posting, i'd have him take the refresher.

[JimmyV]

Any response to the substance of my post? These are not opponents who are ready to fold! Hence the semibluff adds no EV, especially since there are many who AFTER THE TURN IS CHECKED AROUND will blithely bet into you on the river when you make aces up or the nuts and they make top pair or something. You make four big bets often on the river, or an extra one or even two when you snap off thusly-induced river bluffs.

I think you're out of your ta-tas in this thread, Elysium. Which does not preclude your being the genius of the forum.

[skp]

Well, a checkraise does not have to only come from the straight or a guy with a draw.. A guy with two pairs is also going to checkraise beacuse he figures he has Coilean beat and also because he wants to protect his hand. Thus, if I make two pairs or trips on the river, I am going to call. So, I don't think that the ability to release on the river if checkraised on the turn is a reason to bet the turn (but it does constitute another reason to bet the turn for value i.e., you don't have to improve to a flush to make the turn a value bet, you may be quite content with improving to two pairs or trips. Heck, even a Jack will help you overtake 76 or 87 so long as no one else has a Jack).

All that said, I still favour checking the turn although given your viewpoint, I am certainly less sure now as compared to when I made my initial post in this thread.