Steps to Playing More Serious Poker

[Hombre]

Let me preface this post by stating that I feel there are some very competent players on this forum, and you post some insightful comments. That is why I am seeking your guidance and advice. This is not a should I go pro post, simply how to focus my efforts on improving and getting better at different games. I apologize in advance for the length.

I have read Lee Jones, HPFAP, Theory of Poker, and Super System. One question I have for more experienced players, how do you re-read poker books objectively to review concepts when you have been playing for so long, maybe incorrectly?

I have been playing poker for roughly 6 years with a lot of time spent online the past 3 years. Recently I graduated from college and landed a job trading stocks, and I love it. However, there have been a couple months in the past 6 where I have made more money playing poker.

I started playing 2-4 on Paradise 3 years ago and was able to pay a good portion of my college expenses. I live in Texas and loved to play the live 3-6-12 and 10-20 games at the Isle of Capri in Lake Charles. Other than 2 trips to the Commerce that is the extent of my live casino play. If only I lived in LA....Now I play Party Poker. I used to play three 2-4 tables but in the past 3 months have been playing higher limits. Some 5-10, although I have not done very well at this limit. However, I have done really well at 15-30 and have played quite a bit. I have also put together a pretty decent fish list at several limits. Also, I never really played multi-table tourneys because I thought there was a pretty low probability of winning or finishing in the top 3. Yet, I have won a 650 person multi table NL tournament($30 buy in) and have made it to the final table several times in 700+ person NL tournaments...

Then I got hit... Not that bad but enough BB at each limit that I used to play successfully, 2-4, 3-6, 5-10, 15-30. I couldn't win for about 4 days and felt like people were trying to get heads up with me because I was playing poorly. I don't think this is a tilt issue either, although I acknowledge that some of it can be attributed to tilt. I hated this feeling, and I didn't enjoy playing poker, one of my favorite hobbies.

So what have you done when you hit a plateau or a bad run of cards? Also, should I focus my efforts on 1 game? I like NL tourneys, SNG and multi tables. I like Omaha HL but I don't think I am anywhere near as good as I am in limit Hold em.

For those of you who play limit online regularly, how helpful are the programs available (Poker Tracker and Poker Office) Which one would you recommend?

Basically, the influx of awful players convinced me that maybe I thought I am a better poker player than I really am. I still feel I am above average but realize I am often outmatched at the 15-30 table. I love this game and I think I have what it takes. How do I get better? What form of poker do you find most profitable online: sng's, limit he, or the PL/NL omaha and hold 'em games?

Thank you for your help

Hombre

[Allan]

The best thing you can do for your game is to start posting hands you've played as well as start replying to posts as much as you can. It's the quickest way to finding out where your game needs attention.


Allan

[Louie Landale]

Poker books unfortunately tend to present their concepts in such a way as to suggest the concept is "compelling": if you are in that situation then apply the concept, period. Free Cards is a great example.

No. Poker concepts must be prioritized and evaluated and consered in the face of other concepts, in order to come to the best course of action. Here's one. Two calls, you call with A2, blind checks. Flop is A83. Early position bets, one fold, what do you do? [1] If he's a weak-tight player you fold [2] If he's a maniac you raise [3] If he's a typical player who likes to take one stab at it you should call. Same situation, 3 different correct responses.

So, you went on a 4-day losing "streak". I've got some terrible news for you. That's nothin. The month long down turn is right around the corner and you'd better prepare how you are going to handle it or you poker "career" is coming to a close. I've got some more bad news: a similar streak is coming for you Stock Trading endevours as well.

I've written a lot about dealing with the bad streaks. But when your confidence is shaken you need to move down to lower limits. And if you figure they are conspiring to get heads up because you play so bad, then either your confidence is shaken or you do play so bad ..err.. are playing so bad; either way its time to move down.

Yup, 15/30 players play much better and have a pretty good idea what YOU'VE got, when compared to 2/4 players. That shouldn't surprise anybody.

- Louie

[onegymrat]

Hi Hombre,

From your desciption of your background and experience, it's a bit surprising to hear that you are unnerved by a simple and common 4-day bad run. It seems to have deflated your confidence a bit also. For many regular players, this should happen from time to time, and you definitely need confidence to ride this out.

Two things come to mind in your issue. One, you ARE playing higher limits now, and NORMALLY, you will find more skilled and shrewed players. Ones that will pick up your bluffs more often and pay you off less, etc. Therefore, your EV is lower. Second, a bad run is either brought about by the law of statistics, where your premium hands will get sucked out on more than usual. This run WILL end, though, and those skilled players will realize that and ride it out just fine. Or a bad run can be brought about by bad play (no insult intended), where perhaps this is not an actual bad run, but you just had a long lucky run previously, and this is reality.

Find out which one it is. Whether it's the first or second, you will at least know which steps to take to improve your game. By the way, Louie Landale's word is golden, listen to him. I'm just a squirrel looking for a nut like most of these posters. Good luck.

[Mike Gallo]

Hombre,

Como Esta Usted.

How do I get better?

Keep playing, read about the game think about the game. In order to beat this game you must constantly think about it. Most players always remain students of the game.
Find a mentor. If you play well enough mentor someone else.

Post specific hands that trouble you.

One question I have for more experienced players, how do you re-read poker books objectively to review concepts when you have been playing for so long, maybe incorrectly?

I laugh at them. I reread Super System a few weeks ago and I chuckled to myself about Doyles ESP is a Jellyroll essay. Doyle discusses playing rushes. In that type of game, his chips were his rush. It worked for him not for me. Mike Caro advocates limping with AK. I find a flaw with that.
Lou Krieger advocates fit or fold on the flop, I disagree with that to a point.
I play small pairs in any position in a good game. Several authors would cringe at that.

When you have developed your brand of game. you will know when to question the advice so so called experts. If you read any of the Two Plus Two materials, you will question the advice, however if you post your question, you will get a response that will clearly explain the underlying theory.

Welcome aboard.

[ccartman2]

Well, I'm no where near a pro or as successful as some aon this site, but maybe it might be best if you just take a week, or at least a couple of days, off of poker. Like a vacation of sort. Then when you come back to the table, take a fresh look at the way you are playing. This was probably the most amazing thing I read out of super system and it made perfect sense to me.

[Hombre]

Thank you, all of you for your responses. I have taken a few days off from playing poker and am looking forward to playing again.

Thank you Louie, I know bad runs will come and 4 days is nothing. A few years back I lost my bankroll and built it back up twice while playing 2-4 and 3-6. Luckily this hasn't happened in 3 years and I dropped limits when I was playing less than my best poker recently.

Part of my post was regarding game selection and table selection for the highest profitability online. Maybe I can only beat the really bad players and the fish on Party Poker, I'm ok with that. On any given night there are thousands of them on there. So I either need to identify the weak players and tables and make sure I know who the sharks are. (I have already pegged quite a few so I just need to continue to add to the database.) Does anyone recommend a specific poker tracking program? Do you find it more helpful in identifying the leaks in your game, or locating the weak players?

What is more frustrating is that I thought I was on my way to becoming a REALLY good Hold em player. Maybe it was tilt or just a normal run of bad cards/luck but it really upset me that I dropped limits all the way to 2-4 and I couldn't beat the game. 2-4. 3-6. 5-10, 10-20, 15-30...

Then I go on tilt. play a $100 SNG and I win it. I think I have the talent. I'm beginning to think that at this point there are just a lot of mental blocks that ruin my focus and discipline and are keeping me from becoming a tougher player. Any advice to overcoming the the mental blocks? For example in good higher limit games (for me) 15-30 and 20-40, I will often leave the game after I am up a $300 or $400. The game is still good, and I should probably keep playing, but I want to log a winning session and am possibly scared of losing... I don't get these feelings at the lower limits (2-4, 3-6 and 5-10)

I being to ramble again...
One last question, if you had to focus on one kind of game to make the most money online (PartyPoker) which would it be?

NL and PL cash games

Sng's NL/PL or limit and what $$ value

Limit hold em -

By the way how is the 6 max 5-10 game for profitability?

[sthief09]

that section on ESP was the biggest crock of sh!t I've ever read in my life.

[Lou Krieger]

First, let's get to that four day losing streak.l Ignore it. You will suffer protracted losing streaks regardless of what you do that are four days and longer if you continue to play poker. It comes with the territory. And it's not much different than an all-star baseball player going 0-for-four a few days in a row. It's gonna happen, and you have to be resolute enough to that it does not throw you off kilter.

Now, the very best thing you can do is continue on with the iterative process of reading, playing, studying, thinking about the game. Reread all your good poker books. Then play and see how the theory you've read about comports with what you've seen in the game. Discuss the hands that are giving you difficulty. It doesn't matter where: Either post them to a discussion forum, talk about them in person with other poker players you respect, take some lessons, or join a poker disucssion group, but get some feedback and insights into your play.

All of the poker books you feel were instructional to you should always be reread. There's no substitute for reading and rereading them, and if You do I promise that you'll get something new and fresh out of them with each read. In any event, reading keeps you thinking about the game.

And don't let a four day losing streak turn you around or shatter your confidence. It's no big deal.
______
Lou Krieger

[bygmesterf]

[ QUOTE ]


I have read Lee Jones, HPFAP, Theory of Poker, and Super System. One question I have for more experienced players, how do you re-read poker books objectively to review concepts when you have been playing for so long, maybe incorrectly?

So what have you done when you hit a plateau or a bad run of cards? Also, should I focus my efforts on 1 game? I like NL tourneys, SNG and multi tables. I like Omaha HL but I don't think I am anywhere near as good as I am in limit Hold em.

For those of you who play limit online regularly, how helpful are the programs available (Poker Tracker and Poker Office) Which one would you recommend?

Basically, the influx of awful players convinced me that maybe I thought I am a better poker player than I really am. I still feel I am above average but realize I am often outmatched at the 15-30 table. I love this game and I think I have what it takes.
Hombre

[/ QUOTE ]

Some thoughts

In re: Higer limit games. Higher limit games are harder to win at than lower limit games, but if you do win you figure to win more. Fundamentally a shift occurs where by at the higher limits everyone has basic strategy" down pat. Your skill at hand selection and basic post flop play will make you a break even player.

So the solution is to get better, and beyond the basics. I suggest you keep a poker journal and take notes and do post mortems. Pretend you are writing a poker book. And start writing out sections on different parts of play, including plays and what not from your own experience.

In re: Poker books. Yes rereading poker books is a good idea, but understand that most poker books are remarkably basic. Don't fall in love with TOP. Its a good book, but still very basic.

Some books I think you might find interesting.

Science of Poker, Mahmood N Mahmood.
Poker at the millenium, Caro and Cappelletti.
Middle Limit Hold'em poker. Ciaffone.
12 Days to hold'em sucess by Caro.

In re: Ugg I suck.I recomend that you take a break from poker and focus on other things in the meantime. Come back in a weeks time. And start playing at limit you know you can beat, and rebuild your confidence.

In re: Varicne Sucks. Guess what, poker is filled with vairabilty especailly at the higher levels. Huge swings are not remotely uncommon. The best way to reduce swings is to only play when you are in top mental form, and quit the moment you feel slightly off. Recognize that some games are just too tight to be beatable, and move on. The concept of hourly rate, is a myth. Poker results are the result of a few big hands. If those hands dont pan out, then you have a big loss. Chances are that if you are having a losing session either you are playing below par or your opponents are unusually good tonite. A good time to think about if you should quit or switch tables.

Bygmesterf