20-40 Hand at the Commerce

[2005]

Well, for instance, if you check there, the person in last position may not bluff, because now he has to get 2 people to fold instead of 1. It is unethical, not against the rules, because one person can gain monetarily from it, and the other person can't.

Gavin

[pudley4]

Say the Button has a read on the SB as being weak-tight. He also thinks the SB has a weak hand. If he bets, he's pretty sure the SB will fold - the combination of having a weak hand plus the possibility that you may overcall causes the SB to fold.

Now, what happens if you fold instead of checking? The SB now decides to call, since he doesn't have to beat you too.

[andyfox]

Before the flop, one can either fold, call or raise. One can't check.

After the flop, one can either check or bet. If there's no bet in front of you, you can either check or bet. Folding is not an option. You can only fold to a bet.

[skp]

I agree. Folding here is an etiquette no-no.

But even on the net, they allow you to do this. I think it's wrong. For example, on the flop, you are first to act and the options given are "fold, check, bet". If you press fold, a little box will appear to remind you that it is free to check and "are you sure you want to fold?". This is wrong. The system should not give you the fold option.

On that note, here is something that happened online which cost me a fair size pot.

I had 3 bet preflop with AcQc on the button and had two opponents. I bet the flop and they both called. On the turn, I still had no pair but picked up a backdoor flush draw. While playing mutiple games, I had apparently accidently clicked the "advance fold" button.

My two opponents check, I am about to bet the turn when my cards suddenly go in the muck.

It goes without saying that the river card was a club making one guy a stright, the other guy a flush and me the nuts. Except my cards are nowhere to be seen.

I e-mailed Party and asked how my cards could be folded given that no one bet the turn i.e. should not the box show up reminding me that it is free to check? They replied saying that it doesn't show up when the "advance fold" button is clicked. Go figure.

In any event, my thinking is that the fold option should not even be available when there has been no bet in front. The only available options should be "check" or "bet".

Thanks for allowing me to whine and rant a little..heh

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey Sparks,

Folding the river when checked to here, and any other time when there hasn't been a bet, is very bad etiquette. It gives the player(s) behind you more information than the players that came before you. In this specific case it made a bet from the Button much more likely, as he had 50% less players to bluff out than the SB did. Your gauche play made it much more likely for the Button to win the pot than the SB. It's very unfair for the SB. T

Also, there's absolutely no reason for you to muck rather than just check. If you really feel the need to toss your cards into the muck, wait until it's been checked through on the river and then do it before anybody opens.

GoT

[andyfox]

Your post brings up the inherent differences between internet play and B&M play. Not playing on the web, the "advance fold" idea is new to me; I've seen the "delayed" fold plenty of times. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Sparks]

Hi GoT,

I guess I'm a little surprised there is not much support for the right to fold in turn. Oh well, I rarely do it anyway. The only reason I did it on that hand is because of my foul mood, and the fact that the hand was played badly by every player on every street -- I wanted to put a cherry on top of it.

Regarding your comments GoT, you suggest (along with others) it is "unfair" to the SB if I fold. Well, in that case, if I had a bigger hand and the SB bets, I should only call, because raising would be unfair to the SB since I've given the button information the SB didn't have. Plus, I put the SB in the disadvantageous position of deciding whether to call my raise when he may have a weaker hand. Ridiculous, don't you agree? I realize the analogy isn't perfect to folding in turn (I'm sure you see why it's flawed), but still, I think it's worth considering.

Like every hand played in poker, early position players are at a disadvantage to later position players because they act with less information. Folding in turn is a perfectly legal (I think) action so perhaps it should be considered by the earlier position player, along with check, call and raise. Thinking about a fold in turn as a possible action by a player behind you is a bit silly, I agree, but not much sillier than thinking a fold should influence a hand. Anyone influenced by a fold in turn, whether betting, calling or raising, is concerning themselves with the wrong thing, IMO.

So folding in turn is unfair? Imposes a disadvantage? Influences the hand? I guess I didn't realize 20-40 at the Commerce was actually courtesy class.

Thanks for the comments though. Based on the consensus, I won't be folding in turn much anymore. But like the saying goes, it's a lot easier to write about good poker, than to do it. Wish me luck!

Sparks

[hillbilly]

anyone who would fold out of turn is ALWAYS welcome in my game. sure it could work against you in some situations but in others it may be of great help... also i would never speak out against any player doing so as i concider it nit-like and anyone it would bother, well i now have some info on him as an opponent as well.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
I e-mailed Party and asked how my cards could be folded given that no one bet the turn i.e. should not the box show up reminding me that it is free to check? They replied saying that it doesn't show up when the "advance fold" button is clicked. Go figure.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, this is kind of reasonable. You might have an important phone call or a knock on the door or need to use the bathroom or something, so they give you a way to tell the computer right now to just muck your hand when possible, so as not to delay the game when the action reaches you and you can't respond. The whole point of using the advanced action checkboxes should be to deal with the fact that you may not be able to respond when it's your turn, so having the checkbox throw UI at you in turn would be silly. OTOH, when you click the button to fold now, you are clearly there right now, so it is reasonable to ask you for confirmation.

This is just talking from a UI perspective though. I agree with the consensus that folding when there are no bets in front of you is generally ethically bad.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, for instance, if you check there, the person in last position may not bluff, because now he has to get 2 people to fold instead of 1. It is unethical, not against the rules, because one person can gain monetarily from it, and the other person can't.

Gavin

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly how I've interpreted it.