40-80 hand

[J.A.Sucker]

I agree totally with the flop action, but I think the river bet deserves more attention. I think it's a good enough possibilty that you have the button beat but not one of the guys in the middle, but they may not be willing to put in action with other behind them (something like 8d8c or the like). The pot's too big to give up on.

[Clarkmeister]

I'm inclined to agree with you, but I wanted to see what others said first.

[Coilean]

If giving up for 1 bet on the river isn't really an option then the real question seems to be how often the remaining players will check behind with a hand that beats yours. I can't see you getting paid off by multiple hands and winning very often, so you should probably only check the river if you think there's better than a 50% chance someone will check a better hand behind you. It seems pretty unlikely a river bet will be raised at all here, much less by a worse hand, so I wouldn't worry much about those permutations.

[Mikey]

"Turn: I often check here heads-up not wanting to pay more for my flush draw because if I bet and am raised that usually means I'm behind. I guess you could bet and fold to a raise but I'm usally hanging around for the 4th diamond."

You are going to hang around for a 4th diamond?? If it does come are you going to check and call to induce someone to bluff or are you going to fire right out and represent the Ace of diamonds?

I'm pretty sure that Clark doesn't want to see a diamond.

[Robb]

Hi Mikey,

[ QUOTE ]
"Turn: I often check here heads-up not wanting to pay more for my flush draw because if I bet and am raised that usually means I'm behind. I guess you could bet and fold to a raise but I'm usally hanging around for the 4th diamond."

You are going to hang around for a 4th diamond?? If it does come are you going to check and call to induce someone to bluff or are you going to fire right out and represent the Ace of diamonds?

[/ QUOTE ]

To be clear I was referring to a hypothetical heads-up situation. i.e. if I were to bet the turn, all fold, and button raised. If that were the scenario...... then I'm not sure why calling the turn would be bad. CM said button was straight forward. I don't think that always means 'Flush' when Button raises the turn. Button can interpret my bet to mean he and I have the same hand: a King that doesn't want the turn checked through. Therefore Button raises his likely better kicker. I would have odds to call even if the Button has a set.

Now if Button's traits are such that it's highly likely that he has a flush then that's a different story.

As far as what to do if a fourth diamond comes-- I think betting out is best. A Qd or lower diamond will usually not raise. If raised I would fold. It would be pretty rare to be raised by a non-flush. And other hands will sometimes call but not bet if checked to.

But like I mentioned..... in the actual hand, I would have folded to a Button raise on the turn due to the presence of the other player.

Regards,
Jamie

[elysium]

hi clark

great post. clark, i rarely see my recommended course of action advised here. i like the flop bet, a little. there are too many opponents in the field to say that betting is always correct. you know that. but what i recommend doing after the button raises, is folding. i sometimes recommend raising and dropping on the flop to a 3-bet. it's dangerous advice because it's bound to be misapplied in the exactly wrong situation and at the worst possible time. FWIW however, this is the reason we all can advise, and have some ev no less from those who attempt to apply it. which may be why we all write. but dang it clark, i like doing the bet and drop thing when i probe negatively.

in this situation, i think you've found a flush draw somewhere, and a moderate chance of drawing dead, or needing runner, runner. in this spot, bailing out has its virtues. it provides you with a little cover later on in the game when you come in powerfully, and unsettles the holder of any powerhouse you've shown strength against, but then quite unexpectantly just as suddenly and surely dropped to, when he surely expected you to call. it gives you a little unpredictability in the right places, and when i find that the strength shown against my early strength will also cause me to play sub-optimally even if i do improve, and has therefore also effected my implied odds, well, although since as always, understanding when the situation is correct to fold even though it doesn't appear to be mathematically requires skills beyond the scope of your post, i think folding is correct provided it achieve results in some other area of my game. no, you will never hear that here because of the high potential of its misapplication. but if you were asking me 'when is such a fold correct?', i'd point to this post and say 'this looks like a good candidate.'. folding on the flop after the button raises, should at least be strongly considered here. there are better situations in which this type of fold is more appropriate, and usually these situations entail your raising and getting 3-bet in a short-handed. but this hand can qualify, especially if you think that your opponents are guessing your what action you might take with a little better accuracy than usual. that drop throws them clark. but you need to trailing badly, and you know that. are you trailing badly enough to let this one go here? well, if you throw in the flush draw, i think you are. i know clark. for crying out loud, that's the very reason you're calling the raise in the first place. i know. but clark....think a minute. think. since you might be behind in 2 places, doesn't that draw figure negatively here? FWIW, call it pseudo-science, whatever, dang it, i think it does figure negatively. no proof. and this is my opinion only. but i just don't think that being against a flush draw helps you out here. i could say that it could cause one or other of your opponents to meekly call with a stronger hand until it fails to complete. and then he could be meekly calling for other reasons thereafter. he might not like betting expensive. but i just don't like this one clark. say what you will. when the button raises, i like to fold here.

[Paluka]

I don't really understand why you don't 3 bet the flop but you decide to bet out on the turn. It seems like 3 betting the flop could force out hands such as 88 with no diamond.
I assume you were planning on folding if raised on the turn?

[Clarkmeister]

I checked, the river is checked around. The button showed Ad6c, i flipped over my hand and the 3rd player mucked. MHIG.

I didn't 3-bet the flop because the way the game had been, it wasn't going to get anyone out. I mean, what the heck did EP have without a king, seven or the ace of trump?? Besides, I may well be wanting to fold on the turn. I thought playing it safe with the stop and go, representing a crappy king was the best way to get people out of the pot. I would have folded if the button had raised the turn, but this button would only do that if I was badly beaten.

I thought I should have bet the river just on the off chance someone had a 7 also. A king certainly isn't folding, but it doesn't look like ones out there either. Plus, why give them a free look at my hand?

I think the flop bet is pretty routine with a board this spread out, as I mentioned elsewhere in the thread.

[doggin]

You bet out on the turn after the button raised the flop?!

You with middle pair but a K and three diamonds on the
table.
Would you have folded the turn on a raise?

[glen]

In terms of 88 no d, the stop and go will make that hand fold on the turn, but maybe pick up another sb on the flop, no?