close but no cigar

[MicroBob]

"I can't say that I'd advise playing 44 from UTG unless (1.) you are a proven winner at the current limits and (2.) you are at a perfect, perfect table (10 in to see the flop everytime with absolutely no preflop raising)."


i am a proven winner at 2/4....but certianly have flaws in my game and my win-rate is not even close to what i think it should be. still, i do have a win-rate (and lot a lose-rate).


step 2 though seems extreme.
i have NEVER been at a table were there have been 10 limpers each and every hand. in fact, i'm not sure i've even seen 9 limpers for 2 or 3 hands in a row (i say 9...because on this table i would either be raising or folding a majority of the time).

i have been on a live game where it was capped 9 ways PF several times (with me serving as the lone hold-out). now that was a wild wild game.


skalnsky advises 5-way action is sufficient with pocket-pairs. of course, i would be more than happy to get 10-way action.....but i certainly wouldn't make it a requirement.

[MicroBob]

"I do feel it's too loose to cold-call two when it comes back to you and to call again on the flop when you completely miss. If you do this routinely, it will cost a lot of money. "


obviously the call on the flop was based on the pot laying me better than 22:1 odds....but it was a loose call in light of the fact that i didn't close the action and stood a good chance of getting raised.
if i closed the action though, i wouldn't hesitate to make this call.

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no question in my mind that if you play correctly after the initial call in a loose-passive game, playing J9s will be considerably more profitble than 44.


[/ QUOTE ]

In EP? No way. If the table is loose/passive J9s is an easy fold UTG and 44 is an easy call.

Got any pokertracker stats to back up your claim?

[bmedwar]

[ QUOTE ]
In EP? No way. If the table is loose/passive J9s is an easy fold UTG and 44 is an easy call. Got any pokertracker stats to back up your claim?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, just venturing wild guesses :-) Seriously, this is killing me; I almost never play 44 UTG. I will adjust my play.

BTW... I would love to see anyone's pokertracker stats if they play both J9s and 44 UTG.

[bisonbison]

I can't say that I'd advise playing 44 from UTG unless (1.) you are a proven winner at the current limits and (2.) you are at a perfect, perfect table (10 in to see the flop everytime with absolutely no preflop raising).

This is ridiculous and dumb.

Bob was intelligent enough to post a hand he had questions about. Therefore, I trust that Bob is intelligent enough to learn how to play. Given all that, I think that Bob should be able to pick games where he can see the flop with 22 UTG.

In terms of how hard a hand is to play, I think that the pairs 22 through 77 are by far the easiest hands this side of aces. Sure, you can go overboard with them, but there's very little grey area about whether or not you actually have a hand that's worth proceeding with. I could fill a book with half-decent flops for J9s that will trap anybody who's not an expert. and I'm not an expert.

I'm not interested in talking about newbies or whatnot. My advice is for intelligent people who want to learn how intermediate players play, because I'm an intermediate player. There are trap hands that I would not recommend to new players in any position outside of the blinds: namely high offsuits without an ace and suited two and three gaps without an ace. I have trouble with these hands, so I assume that newer players will too. Small pairs are not trap hands. They are bread and butter, fun hands to play.

[bmedwar]

This page of Pre-Flop Income Rates shows...

# of opponents
1 3 6
--- --- ---
44 142 52 67
J9s 113 248 377

So it seems that I am correct (based on this info, and HFAP groupings).

[charlie_t_jr]

Isn't this particular preflop situation why you would immediately muck 44 UTG? You don't know what the players behind you are going to do. I guess if you had a read on the table as passive, but I think folding a soon as you saw them, would have been best.

[bisonbison]

Isn't this particular preflop situation why you would immediately muck 44 UTG?

This particular preflop action is why you would muck any small pair, any suited connector, any weak ace... When it comes back to you. Not the first time around.

There are hands that are worth limping UTG in loose passive games.

[bmedwar]

[ QUOTE ]
fun hands to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm wary of advice about playing hands because they are "easy" and "fun".

[bisonbison]

Well, you can trust hot and cold simulations, or you can look at reality and see how actual humans do with the cards:

Pokerroom 10-handed stats

J9s
SB -0.04
BB -0.12
UTG -0.09
UTG+1 -0.04
UTG+2 -0.11
MP1 -0.03
MP2 -0.01
MP3 0.00
CO 0.07
BTN 0.18

44
SB 0.05
BB -0.10
UTG -0.08
UTG+1 -0.06
UTG+2 -0.01
MP1 0.10
MP2 0.02
MP3 0.02
CO -0.06
BTN -0.03

Winner:
SB: 44
BB: 44
UTG: 44
UTG+1: J9s
UTG+2: 44
MP1: 44
MP2: 44
MP3: 44
CO: J9s
BTN: J9s

Overall position by position winner? 44
Overall EP winner? 44