close but no cigar

[bisonbison]

Bob, and I mean this seriously:

If you can't limp 22 UTG in a game, find another game.

Our goal as poker players is to find situations where our skills will give us the most EV. If the game you're in is not loose enough to pay you off if you limp a small pair and flop a set, there'd better be a damn good reason why you're sitting there.

[MicroBob]

interesting.

bison says 'if you can't limp with 22 UTG then find a different game'
but a lot of other players are saying not to even try limping with this PF (or at least, that's how they prefer to play it).


the low PP hitting a set is not going to be the nuts so you really can't bet with too much confidence.....so i am tending to agree with those who say to ditch it PF when it gets to be 2-bets back to me.

thanks again for the different viewpoints.

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
bison says 'if you can't limp with 22 UTG then find a different game'
but a lot of other players are saying not to even try limping with this PF (or at least, that's how they prefer to play it).


the low PP hitting a set is not going to be the nuts so you really can't bet with too much confidence.....so i am tending to agree with those who say to ditch it PF when it gets to be 2-bets back to me.


[/ QUOTE ]

Saying to limp with small PP's and also saying to fold them if its 2 back to you are 2 different things. Both sound correct to me. The 2nd part about folding is more questionable than playing small PP's in EP in my opinion.

I usually play any pair UTG and if I flop a set you can bet your ass I'm paying it with confidence, a lot of confidence. I don't care if it was capped 5 ways preflop and I flop a set of dueces and both an A and K flop as well, I'm still playing with confidence until I get capped on the turn in which case I may just call the river. Do you really find it hard to play low sets confidently? If so I think you may need to re-evaluate the reasons for that.

[bisonbison]

95% of the time, a set of twos is no more vulnerable than a set of aces.

Low pairs are low variance hands. 85% of the time, you flop nothing and you fold. 13% of the time, you flop a set. and maybe 2% of the time, you flop some kind of draw that makes it worthwhile to stay in.

The vast majority of the time, when you flop a set, you win.

Really, it's not rocket science, but if you are afraid to limp 22 UTG, then either you're not seeing how straightforward the hand is to play, or the game simply isn't soft enough.

[bmedwar]

I'm very confused. On these boards I've been told that folding J9s from EP is an "easy fold". Now I know that J9s is a considerably better hand than two fours. What gives?

[bisonbison]

J9s is not a considerably better hand than 44. If someone offered you a once in a lifetime deal to win a million dollars by pitting J9s against 44 and running it to showdown, you should pick 44 every single time and twice on tuesday. But that doesn't matter.

They're very different hands. suited connectors and suited aces are high variance hands because they often flop draws that take several bets and then fail to materialize. Or they flop a pair or two and are in a kicker competition. They're profitable in a lot of places but they're not as easy as low pairs. If there are 4 opponents and the flop comes KT8, you fold your fours. That's it. End of story.

[bmedwar]

[ QUOTE ]
They're profitable in a lot of places but they're not as easy as low pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no question in my mind that if you play correctly after the initial call in a loose-passive game, playing J9s will be considerably more profitble than 44.

If you are grooming your advice towards newbies that make mistakes after the initial call, consider the way the hero played his 4's in this case. It's not as easy as you might think. I think newbie's will make close to an equal number of mistakes with 44 as J9s.

My newbie advice would be to only play Group 3 or better from EP. Once you are profitable, experiment with Group 4 hands that play well in multiway pots (including J9s) in games that don't involve much preflop raising.

I can't say that I'd advise playing 44 from UTG unless (1.) you are a proven winner at the current limits and (2.) you are at a perfect, perfect table (10 in to see the flop everytime with absolutely no preflop raising).

[MicroBob]

well, i feel like i'm being accused of being too loose and too passive at the same time in a way. i was starting to agree with those to play these more conservatively including those who tend to not play these at all PF.

i'll play these UTG more often then i will UTG+1 or UTG+2. from these positions, i already want one or two limpers to me (this coincides with Sklansky's recommendations i believe).

i believe my previous comments were not conveyed properly.
i am merely talking about one's uncertainty trying to play this hand in a multi-way capped or 3-bet pot like this one..
basically, i'm just saying that the odds of winning when you catch on a hand like this aren't quite as fantastic as you would like to think they are.


anyway, lets just see here.

last 15k hands (8-10 players)-

7 off the button -
22 - 2x - VPIP100 - $6
33 - 2x - VPIP100 - ($10)
44 - 2x - VPIP100 - ($7.50)
55 - 4x - VPIP100 - ($29.00)
66 - 0x
77 - 0x

6 off button
22 - 3x - VPIP 66 - ($4.00)
33 - 3x - VPIP 66 - $14.50
44 - 3x - VPIP 66 - ($6.00)
55 - 9x - VPIP 78 - $1.50 - W$SD 66
66 - 10x- VPIP 100- ($5.00)
77 - 3x - VPIP 100- $4.50

5 off button
22 - 6x - VPIP 83 - ($14.00)
33 - 10x- VPIP 40 - $41.50
44 - 6x - VPIP 83 - $17.00
55 - 7x - VPIP 71 - ($4.75)
66 - 13x- VPIP 100- ($37.00)
77 - 8x - VPIP 87 - $88.00 - WtSD 57 - W$SD 100

[Greg J]

I would have folded after the flop, especially in such an early position. despite getting beat on the last card, you really did get outplayed on this hand. you cant stay in hoping to make a low set -- if you dont hit your set on the flop, just like bison said, you gotta fold! plus there was a flush draw on the flop. at least that is how it seems to me.

but hey, that is how we learn! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[chief444]

I don't feel it's too loose to limp with any pocket pair at your typical loose passive micro game. I agree with Bison that if you feel it is a game where you can't limp in with any pocket pair you should find another game. I do feel it's too loose to cold-call two when it comes back to you and to call again on the flop when you completely miss. If you do this routinely, it will cost a lot of money.