Is It Really Possible??? Maybe Mason or other Pros can comment PLEASE

[KC50]

...to show no profits while playing solid poker with no leaks for an extended period of time, lets say 2 months, 6 months, a year or longer?

When I'm running good I feel great about my game and feel how could I ever lose?. However, when things are running bad my first thought is to blame it on bad luck or bad play and suck outs from my so called lesser skilled opponents.

For the past 3-4 weeks I have not cashed in any tourneys or sit n go's (online) as well as losing about 150 BB in ring games.

I took off a few days and read from several books in my poker library (S&M HEPFAP, TOP, TPFAP, SS etc...). I discovered not one, not 2 but several leaks my game has suffered from. I have since started again and am more at ease playing while showing a plus in my bankroll.

I've heard discussion in the past that it is possible to go a full year in the red while playing solid poker without tilt etc...

Even for the best of the best I feel leaks can and do happen. I know for me when I'm running bad (or even good for that matter) I can always take a look and find some small to blatant leak that can be worked on. I have not had a losing year for over 30 years and I admit I have leaks that appear periodically throughout. I just can't buy the possiblity that a losing streak or bad run for any extented period of time as mentioned can happen without having "ANY" leaks in one's game.

All comments welcome and appreciated.

Kind Regards,

KC

[LetsRock]

It's hard to imagine running so bad that one would show no profit for as along as a year, assuming that one is playing pretty regularly.

Extended bad streaks do occur to even the best of the best, but if I were losing consistently for a year, I would have serious doubts that I'm playing good poker. I doubt that I'd even be able to play at all if I sustained that kind of streak.

What exactly would the point be? I'm not making any money and it surely wouldn't be fun.

[DrSavage]

Running bad happens.
If you were a perfect poker player playing poker for an eternity you would have arbitrarily large losing streaks. No matter how good you play it's possible to go on a 1000000000000 BB losing streak without winning a hand. The probability of that is quite low yet nonzero.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi KC50:

I think you're well within the realm of probability. However, whenever I hear a complaint such as yours, I always wonder if the person in question is as solid or plays as well as he thinks. So if losing makes you review your game, and perhaps find some leaks, you're really winning.

Best wishes,
Mason

[KC50]

Mason,

Thanks for your reply. However, I wasn't really complaining.

Your comment "I always wonder if the person in question is as solid or plays as well as he thinks" hit the nail right on the head. I am a winning player and I admit fall into the trap of thinking I am better than I really am especially when things are running good. I get unlucky more than I get lucky, so I think. I discovered that even when it appears that I got unlucky, the truth of the matter at times is maybe I shouldn't have even played the hand in the first place.

Thank you for your ending comment of "So if losing makes you review your game, and perhaps find some leaks, you're really winning".

I believe this to be true.

That being said, thanks to yours and David's literature and some others I am able to take a look at my toughest opponent, myself.

Kind Regards,

KC

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
However, when things are running bad my first thought is to blame it on bad luck or bad play and suck outs from my so called lesser skilled opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

My first thought is checking my game. With a fine toothed comb. I only consider the above after i've checked and reviewed my play.

I also do this when I'm winning. Im guessing, but doesnt seem from your post you think about this either as a first thing to look at. All players will develop a leak at sometime. The trick is to catch it early.

b

[KC50]

I agree. That maybe a leak in itself. To blame others first then look at myself. Thanks...

Kind Regards,

KC

[George Rice]

[ QUOTE ]
For the past 3-4 weeks I have not cashed in any tourneys or sit n go's (online) as well as losing about 150 BB in ring games.


[/ QUOTE ]

Just to address the losing streak you cited. Not cashing in a tourney or sit-n-goes for a few weaks is not that bad of a losing streak. Also being down 150 BB (such as $1500 in a 5/10 game) is not that much. You can make that up in a few good sessions.

My experience with losing streaks is that I tend to go on them after I've been playing regularly for a few months. And I can't really put my finger on why. So I stop playing for a while and won't go back until my head is clear, which takes several weeks to a few months. After going back I tend to play better than ever. Also, when losing I can see the reasons and it doesn't bother me, as they're not because of bad play on my part.

What I suspect is happening is that when I'm playing regularly I see opportunities to loosen up a bit and take advantage of situations (such as by playing more hands and calling on the end with marginal hands). But after several months of this my judgement weakens and I lose my orientation and start loosening up at the wrong times. This eventially has an effect on my results (especially since I've also moved up in limits). This in turn has an emotional effect which tells me it's time for a break (One tell-tale is when I start taking money out of my accounts because I'm afraid of losing it all. Another is when I get angry at the bad play of my opponents, or start thinking that the cites aren't on the up and up). During this break I'll rarely even read about poker. I need to clear my head from it totally.

I've gone through this cycle numerous times. As time goes on the cycle gets longer but the "recovery" time gets shorter. And as I stated above, I'm better each time I start a new cycle. Also, when I start playing again I also start reading again, which improves my game even more.

So my advice would be to try taking a break until the losing streak you're on isn't something that bothers you any more. Then come back and see how you do.

[Lou Krieger]

[ QUOTE ]
...to show no profits while playing solid poker with no leaks for an extended period of time, lets say 2 months, 6 months, a year or longer?

When I'm running good I feel great about my game and feel how could I ever lose?. However, when things are running bad my first thought is to blame it on bad luck or bad play and suck outs from my so called lesser skilled opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used Wilson's Turbo Texas Hold'em to dig into this issue a few years ago and came away shocked at how long someone who plays well could suffer a protracted losing streak.

However, you can't always blame long losing streaks on suck outs. After all, it's impossible to correct a problem or game leak until we're aware of it, and it's always possible that a leak in your game is at least partially responsible for your results, and if you're not aware of that leak's existance, you won't be able to do anything about it.

I like to be in control of my own destiny, so I'd be more prone to look for leaks in my game if I had this kind of losing strak rather than simply write them off as a function of someone else's mad luck. At least that way I'm forcing myself to be self aware and to dig into what I'm doing with an eye to improving it. Having said that, even if you had a committee of leading players voting on each decision you were to make at the poker table, and you followed their advice to the letter, it's still possible to go a long time with poor results.

This is a wordy of saying that conclusions are hard to draw, but in the absence of firm conclusions, I'd suggest looking as deeply as you can into your own game with an eye to rebuilding where necessary.

Hope this helps....

_____
Lou Krieger
Raise your game with Lou Krieger, author of "Internet Poker: Hoe to Play and Beat Online Poker Games," at Royal Vegas Poker
http://www.royalvegaspoker.com/lou

[Mason Malmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
I used Wilson's Turbo Texas Hold'em to dig into this issue a few years ago and came away shocked at how long someone who plays well could suffer a protracted losing streak.


[/ QUOTE ]

When David and I looked at TTH recently it played so bad that I don't believe that you can draw any conclusions from it on any topic. In our email letter to Wilson we said that it made plays that rank suckers wouldn't make, and we were looking at the tight, aggressive players. So why is it that you are always promoting it?

Also, aren't you aware that there are formulas, which were published almost 20 years ago, that allow you to compute an hourly standard deviation by only recording your session results and the length of time that you played for that session. You can do this instead of recording your results after every 60 minutes as you recommend in all your books.

MM