Revenge on the any2carders

[gcue]

[ QUOTE ]
And if they're on draws, what makes you think they'll bet the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Only the UTG was possibly on a draw

Rasoning:
The SB 3bet the preflop making me think AA-TT AKs/o,AQs or something of that nature, of those hands I can only see JJ and TT backing off after that flop so I think its acceptable to count on the SB to bet out on the turn unless a really scary card hits
Also he bet out after a preflop cap indicating either he hit the flop or had aces (AK,AQ,KQ,AA,QQ The reason I include QQ is that by betting out here if I have AA I'm going to raise him and he can 3bet me also maybe getting rid of the UTG, kind of a double deception and definitely how I'd play QQ from his position)

as for this particular time, I definitely got more bets the way I played it, I was able to raise the turn and the river and get both players to call the whole way. (also note the Q2's smooth call on the flop, he was obviously passive but just didnt want the river to check around) BUT that doesn't mean it was correct like Tilt said.

I wonder what a simulator could tell us?

can anyone
-set up the SB with any viable 3bet preflop hand
set the UTG with ANY 2 cards
set up the button(me) with K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Stack the flop to be Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
and run it like 100,000 times

[lil']

I'm with Guy on this one. I would raise the flop. I understand the reasoning behing waiting to raise, but it's riskier.

1) SB may not bet out again, and you will have nobody to raise
2) As Guy has said numerous times, there could be a lot of draws out there that need to be charged. There are cards that may come on the turn that will make you squirm, although you would probably still raise it anyway.
3) SB (or anyone else on a big draw) may 3 bet, allowing you to get even more money in on the flop.

So you may have made more money this way, but it's a riskier play.

[colgin]

I agree with Guy here. He made his points so well that I don't want to just reiterate them However, I thought I would just point out the following passages from Theory of Poker on Slowplaying (I am sure that if I am taking this out of context then someone will correct me).

"You shouldn't slowplay when your strength is obvious or the pot is large. Nor should you slowplay when a cheap or free card has a fair chance of giving an opponent a better hand than yours or a justifiable draw." (p. 146) He adds that in hold 'em you must be especially careful of flush and straight draws unless you can already beat them.

In this situation you capped the flop, so your hand is not that well-disguised. The pot is already large (see prior sentence). You are at risk of both a straight and a flush draw.

Yes, if you raise here the others will have the correct odds to call. But as Sklansky also says about raising when you have the best hand but others may nonetheless be making correct call: "[Y]ou're at least getting more money in a pot you expect to win most of the time."

Even though nobody is getting a free card on the turn, that card is cheaper than if you had raised. Plus, the SB may re-raise, then making it possible that UTG will make an incorrect call (as well as giving you the opportunity to cap it).

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with Guy here. He made his points so well that I don't want to just reiterate them However, I thought I would just point out the following passages from Theory of Poker on Slowplaying (I am sure that if I am taking this out of context then someone will correct me).

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW I don't really consider this case a slowplay. When I originally posted, I did fail to consider that the SB had 3-bet preflop and thus likely has a hand he might 3-bet with so that might make the raise a better play.

I would not cap the flop for the same reasons I advocated smoothcalling the flop in my original arguement.

[GuyOnTilt]

I would not cap the flop for the same reasons I advocated smoothcalling the flop in my original arguement.

Whether I cap the flop or not after the SB 3-bets depends on the UTG player. If he calls the 3-bet, I cap. If he folds, I wait for the turn.

GoT

[Joe Tall]

You played this hand terribly.

First, Raise preflop!!

Getting 3-bet on the flop on a paired board (even though it is a three) has to tell you something. You could be easily behind.

As for the way you played it: after capping the flop and the EP betting into you on the turn, even though you may have improved, I think you can go into call down mode.

Welcome to the forum,
Joe Tall

[gcue]

I assume you mean the ATs Yeah, this post had nothing to do with how I played it.

It was a karma comes to bite the any2carder in the ass post

[GuyOnTilt]

I assume you mean the ATs Yeah, this post had nothing to do with how I played it.

It was a karma comes to bite the any2carder in the ass post.

The purpose of your post doesn't change the fact that you misplayed your hand badly. Stop making excuses. This forum is meant to help everybody learn and improve. If you want to become better, leave your pride and excuses at the door.

GoT

[gcue]

Tilt stop being a jackass, all i meant to do was put a smile on a few peoples face and amke them laugh that one of the jerks who plays things like J3 UTG caught but got burned - if you cant handle that then dont bother reading it.

And I didn't play it horribly, I made some mistakes.

It's not an automatic raise preflop every time, if it is you're playing like a robot and too predictable.

My flop cap wasn't all that bad even, and my turn raise was fairly bad but not awful when you consider at this limit people way overplay their hands and he could easily have held KT,QT,JJ,QQ,KK. (yes lots of these people limp on their JJ-AA).

[soda]

Ok, I finally got around to reading this post and here are my thoughts.

General Thoughts For gcue and Other Noobs

Use this forum to post hands that you aren't sure if you played well or not. Trust me, you are making many mistakes at this stage. That's only natural. You've just started out, you have a lot to learn. Posting for fun and revenge is great, but improving your game to where you are making 4 big bets per table per hour is much better.

GoT has given you excellent advice. Re-read what he says, I can't think of anything that I disagree with in his posts and he is genuinely trying to tell you and explain to you the correct way to play the hand and why it's the correct way. Thanks GoT.

First Hand ATs

You played this hand terribly. Don't get upset about that. Learn from it. In this game, unfortunately, you cannot put people on hands based on their position. You can not do this in 1/2 and you certainly cannot do this in 10/20. Put me on a certain hand and fail to adjust and I will eat you alive.

Two days ago, I raised 65s UTG. It was capped back to me. The flop came 665. Lucky for me, both of my opponents failed to believe that I held a 6. I know one had AA and I think the other had KK. After repeated raises by me, they just kept raising as if I couldn't have a six. Did I get lucky here? Absolutely, but I got even luckier because these guys failed to adjust. They can tell everyone how they lost a $500 pot some jerk who raised a 65 UTG.

At each bet or raise by your opponents, you need to increase the strength of their possible hand holdings. And if an opponent caps a flop like this - you seriously need to shut down unless you are positive you hold the best hand.

Hand Number 2 - KK

Not as bad as the first hand, but a classic example of both weak tight thinking and weak tight play. You have a monster hand here. One nice thing about monster hands is that someone else can have a very strong hand and still be drawing dead to you. As was the case in this example. Also, someone may have a flush draw and may cap this flop for you. Ordinarily with 3 people, it would be fine to do this, even profitable if this player had a straight draw to go with it, but with your hand, a percentage of every bet on the flop here is coming directly to you and both of the other players will be losing money. The long exception being if someone had JTs and had 14 clean outs - they might be making extra money from the third guy by capping this flop. I'm not sure though. Your hand is very strong and might still be sucking enough money from this very strong draw to make it cost prohibitive for him to raise.

There are many reasons to raise this flop. You have the best hand. The hand can easily be beaten. Your opponents can easily have strong hands that will reraise your raise, giving you the opportunity to cap it here or wait until the turn and raise it again.

Your logic of waiting to see if a flush card comes off or a straight card is terrible. If one of these cards does come and someone continues to bet, you will have lost many bets by not raising. This is classic weak tight and you cannot afford to play this way, especially in a shorthanded game. It will take your opponents some time to realize you are on a set. if you play it straightforward and raise. They will be wondering, "does he have AA, AK, the nut flush draw?" Let them be the ones guessing. If the flop ends up capped, a heart hits and someone bets into you. Then you "know" you are up against a made hand. If you just smooth call. You've managed to keep the pot small and you learned absolutely nothing. Poker is all about knowledge and building huge pots when you have a huge hand. Become aggressive. Become overaggressive even, it's better than being timid.

Big Picture

When you post a hand, you will often get supporters who say you did the correct thing and people who say you played it incorrectly. Listen to the reasoning on both sides. Look at the way you played the hand as if it were seperate from actions that you actually made. Pretend someone else played the hand and objectively decide if you could have played it better, then go out there next time and play it better.

Next time you flop a scary top set with KK, you better be raising that flop and hoping it comes back capped. Then, when you lose to some jackoff who had a T9o and caught a J on a board of KQ4, you can say you lost a chitload of money and could have saved some by just calling, but you decided to play it correctly.

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

soda