Revenge on the any2carders

[eh923]

GoT is dead on with all of his comments, including your money management style.

On the KK hand, that was not a great flop for you. You're probably right that the draws would've stayed, but charging them is still the right move. Sure you made a bet or two more this time, but you also increase the possibility of losing the entire pot (which is by no means the "minimum").

[gcue]

I'm by no means an expert, infact I'm fairly new.

But can you explain a little more clearly why that's a bad call against 2 players with me being in last position and the SB betting out. Keep in mind if they have a draw are not going to fold it. maybe with examples. because I still think it's the right move

These are the scenarios I'm thinking of
If I do raise the flop and a draw card comes and it's checked to me then what? check and give a free card to a possible one card str8 or flush? or bet and risk a check raise that I pretty much have to calldown having top set against a (semi)bluff and overouts if they really did hit.

They're already being charged for their draw by the fact that it was bet by the SB, I don't see what good raising that flop does other than let them know how strong I am sooner, and set myself up for a check raise if they hit a draw.

And please don't get the wrong impression here, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but rather trying to learn everything I can.

[TheRake]

This particular play has been debated many times on this forum. I don't consider waiting for the turn to raise this hand "Slow playing". I would rather charge someone 2 big bets on the turn to see the last card when the flush or str8 card doesn't come rather than 2 small bets (on the flop) then have them check to me on the turn. This ruins the effective odds for thier drawing hand. It is not always correct to play the hand this way, but I think in this case it was.

TheRake

[Nottom]

I have to disagree with everyone about the KK hand. I think waiting till the turn is probably correct in this case.

Hero was on the button and everyone was in after an SB bet. Raising here does nothing to limit the field and you will get more money in the pot and punish any draws more on the turn if it bricks off.

Waiting till the turn probably earned our Hero an extra BB and getting the most out of your big hands is what separates the winners from the losers.

[GuyOnTilt]

But can you explain a little more clearly why that's a bad call against 2 players with me being in last position and the SB betting out. Keep in mind if they have a draw are not going to fold it.

The point of raising the flop is never to get legitimate draws to fold. It won't ever happen, especially in this instance where raising isn't forcing anybody to call 2 bets cold. The point of raising is to charge those draws to catch up while you're ahead. As I said earlier, this board screams action! Raise and hope you get played back at. It's just too dangerous of a flop to not get as much money in as you can while you KNOW that you're ahead.

If I do raise the flop and a draw card comes and it's checked to me then what? check and give a free card to a possible one card str8 or flush? or bet and risk a check raise that I pretty much have to calldown having top set against a (semi)bluff and overouts if they really did hit.

You definitely don't check the turn, regardless of what card falls. Don't even look at the board if you're never raised for the rest of the hand if that's what it takes. And I'm being serious. If you would even contemplate checking the turn or river if a draw card came, don't even look at the board until after you bet. Checking the turn, even if a heart comes, would be disasterous. If you get c/r'ed, then you can call down unimproved if it's a heart, but I'd still 3-bet if it were a potential straight card, since it would more likely mean 2-pair than a straight.

What was your plan if a heart fell on the turn? Just call down without filling up on the river? Calling on every street is about the worst way you can play a flopped top set. Raising the flop will allow you to play the turn and river more accurately because you'll have a better read on your opponents' hands.

They're already being charged for their draw by the fact that it was bet by the SB,

Wouldn't you rather charge them as much as possible, than just the minimum?

I don't see what good raising that flop does other than let them know how strong I am sooner, and set myself up for a check raise if they hit a draw.

Why does a flop raise mean that you have a monster hand? Hopefully you've been aggressive with your hands at this table that a flop raise doesn't mean 2 pair or better. You raise because you have the best hand. Your hand is very vulnerable on this flop. You must take control of this pot ASAP and not let it go until somebody makes you.

So you raise the flop:

1) For value. Get the money in when you know you're ahead.
2) For information. It'll allow you to play the turn and river more accurately, and more in line with the FTOP.
3) To gain control of the pot. Aggression is vital to maximizing success in this game.

And please don't get the wrong impression here, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but rather trying to learn everything I can.

That's why I'm here too.

GoT

[GuyOnTilt]

I have to disagree with everyone about the KK hand. I think waiting till the turn is probably correct in this case.

Slowplaying on that flop is a bad idea, IMO. I don't see how waiting till the turn to raise is correct. There's just too many turn cards that can come off that will either make you not want to raise, or if you do raise, get you 3-bet.

Hero was on the button and everyone was in after an SB bet. Raising here does nothing to limit the field and you will get more money in the pot and punish any draws more on the turn if it bricks off.

You're not raising to limit the field. You're raising for value and for information. And if they're on draws, what makes you think they'll bet the turn?

Waiting till the turn probably earned our Hero an extra BB and getting the most out of your big hands is what separates the winners from the losers.

In this particular hand, waiting till the turn actually cost our hero a couple bets I think. The SB flopped two pair. HOWEVER, THE RESULTS ARE NOT RELEVANT. The question is, if this hand were played out an infinite amount of times, with his opponents holding random hands and the turn and river coming up with random cards, what flop play would show the most profit. I think it's definitely a raise.

I'm willing to be corrected, but it's going to take much convincing. This flop is a horrible one to be slowplaying. Raise, raise, raise.

GoT

[gcue]

I do see what you mean a little more clearly, I also see rake's point on how this hand can be very debatable as to which way it should be.

[ QUOTE ]
What was your plan if a heart fell on the turn? Just call down without filling up on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]
That was my exact plan - Any K and any 2pair possibly a Q is going to keep betting unless they are tight passive -- one problem here is if a draw card hits and it's checked to me on the turn I still have to bet and may be setting myself up for a check raise, although I still have 10 overouts.

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't you rather charge them as much as possible, than just the minimum?

[/ QUOTE ]
not so early as it gives better odds to their calls on the turn

I do see your side more clearly now though ... but now I'm on the fence as to which way is better. Both ways have upsides and downsides from what I see.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]

Slowplaying on that flop is a bad idea, IMO. I don't see how waiting till the turn to raise is correct. There's just too many turn cards that can come off that will either make you not want to raise, or if you do raise, get you 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think a flop raise does anything to help you. If Hero was in EP or if the bet came from UTG and there were still players left to act, I think a raise is correct. When everybody is already in for one bet a raise does nothing to help you win the pot, so I think its best to begin focusing on maximizing the pot that you are most likely going to win.

[ QUOTE ]
You're not raising to limit the field. You're raising for value and for information. And if they're on draws, what makes you think they'll bet the turn?


[/ QUOTE ]

You get more value from a turn raise. What makes you think they are on draws?

[ QUOTE ]
In this particular hand, waiting till the turn actually cost our hero a couple bets I think. The SB flopped two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it was UTG who flopped the 2-pair and never raised even though given plenty of opportunity, so I think I can safely say he didn't lose any bets.

[eh923]

When I was 16, I got my first traffic ticket. And you know, it didn't feel as bad as I thought it would.

Why does that matter to you? Several of your posts point out a fear of being check-raised. You'll eventually get CR'd, and it isn't that big of a deal. When it happens to you, it doesn't mean the end of the world. You could be behind, but perhaps the turn gave someone a good draw, two pair, a lower set, etc. My point is, you have a great (but still vulnerable) hand, and someone has to pass you to win. The best part is that they are going to try! Make them pay, and don't try to squeeze out an extra bet here and there at the risk of the entire pot.

And your posts don't make you sound like a jerk. But even if they did, does it really matter? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[GuyOnTilt]

not so early as it gives better odds to their calls on the turn.

On a board like this, that should not be your concern. First off, at these limits, I doubt your opponents are thinking in terms of pot odds. But regardless, a flush draw or open-ended straight draw is going to be getting correct odds to call on the turn whether you raise the flop or raise the turn. In fact, if your plan was to raise the turn, you'd actually be giving them BETTER odds to call than if you had raised the flop. Example:

There are 9 BB's in the pot PF. If you raise the flop, that's another 3 BB's, making 12. So after you bet the turn, the SB would be getting 13:1 on his call, and the UG player, 14:1 if the SB calls. If you wait for the turn, there's 10.5 BB's in the pot going into the turn. SB bets, UTG calls, you raise. That's 4 BB's on the turn, giving the SB 14.5:1 on his call, and the UTG player 15.5:1 on his if the SB calls.

Not that that really matters that much 'cause, as I said, they'd be getting correct odds to call with any legitimate draw anyways. Even a gutshot draw could correctly call on the turn either way, so I think your argument of pot manipulation isn't applicable to this hand.

GoT