Question for experience pros...

[Tailgunner]

What limits would you suggest I move up to to significantly avoid the "schooling" factor? I'm most interested in (N)LHE and PLO8, but thoughts on other variations are welcome also. I'm confident enough in my abilities, but I need to have an idea of how much I need to put together and how high I'll need to go.

Abundant fish sounds like fun, but far too often I either wind up with too many in the pot and somebody gets lucky, or it's as if they take turns sucking out. The odds suggest the right plays at the right time win in the long run, but for an extended time I've been taking a lot of bad beats, and I'm tired of having my bankroll ripped apart.

Thanks,

<font color="teal">~TG</font> [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[dibbs]

I really don't know where to direct this to. What's your bankroll? I'd try asking the small stakes holdem and the O8 forum (or whatever game you want to play in) and tell them your bankroll and what limits you want to play etc, theyll probably have some helpful advice for you.

If you're properly rolled, you want the game with the most fishes by far, finding better players in general isn't a good way to jack up your earn. Variance is your best friend, he just happens to be sadistic.

Best of luck.

[Yarney]

With proper strategy any No limit or pot limit game is extremely beatable. If you can adapt to the table and know how to protect your hand you can always exploit the fish.

Limit is a different story and I would reccomend playing no smaller than 5/10 if you have these concerns.

-Yarney

[Alex/Mugaaz]

Please let me know where you're going to play and SN.

Thanks!

[timprov]

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't know where to direct this to.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sort of post typically goes to holdem general.

[Kaeser]

[ QUOTE ]
With proper strategy any No limit or pot limit game is extremely beatable. If you can adapt to the table and know how to protect your hand you can always exploit the fish.

Limit is a different story and I would reccomend playing no smaller than 5/10 if you have these concerns.

-Yarney

[/ QUOTE ]

Not trying to dispute but in my limited experience if you can't beat the games where almost everyone plays poorly then you'll have real problems playing in a game where only a few people play poorly.

[glass_onion]

it is my opinion that you are not good enough to be considering moving up in stakes. If you cannot beat low limit (i'm assuming 50c/$1 or $1/2 on partypoker) you are not a solid player.

Your whines about sucking out speak to your ignorance. Sucking out should inspire you. It says that people who don't know how to play the game are playing. Unless of course you don't really know what a suck out is, and they are justified in thier calls.

Read more, think more. Then move up.

[MarkGritter]

[ QUOTE ]
What limits would you suggest I move up to to significantly avoid the "schooling" factor? I'm most interested in (N)LHE and PLO8, but thoughts on other variations are welcome also. I'm confident enough in my abilities, but I need to have an idea of how much I need to put together and how high I'll need to go.

Abundant fish sounds like fun, but far too often I either wind up with too many in the pot and somebody gets lucky, or it's as if they take turns sucking out. The odds suggest the right plays at the right time win in the long run, but for an extended time I've been taking a lot of bad beats, and I'm tired of having my bankroll ripped apart.


[/ QUOTE ]

PL and NL games are rarely affected by 'schooling' in the true sense. To me, 'schooling' implies not just a lot of loose players, but a very specific situation in which the incorrect calls of the first players become correct because later players call as well. (For example, in LHE, a player calling getting 8:1 on his gutshot is incorrect--- but with three players calling behind him it becomes a correct call.)

In a PL game, the first caller to a pot bet gets only 2:1, the second caller 3:1, etc., so the range of hands that can 'school' seems much lower.

Omaha in particular depends so much on nut-peddling and huge draws that I find it hard to believe 'schooling' is the issue--- suckouts, maybe, but loose calls becoming correct because of the number of callers is another matter.

To bring things more on topic for Other Poker... does (limit) Triple Draw typically suffer the 'schooling' problem or not?

Loose players are often drawing dead or very slim against a pat player. It is unlikely that an additional bet or two will cause any difference in the correctness of their call.

Drawing hands run somewhat closer together in value than in other games. This has two effects. First, a call (against another drawing hand) is less likely to be incorrect given larger multiway pots. Second, the addition of another caller tends to decrease equity except for very strong draws. So it may actually be to a loose player's detriment to have other loose players behind him.

On the other hand, it is certainly the case that 3-handed and 4-handed pots play much differently, especially on later streets, than 2-handed pots. Is this good or bad for an advanced player? I think it is somewhat bad, because the good player's good decision-making skills on later streets (bluffs, bluff-catching, snows, value raises and value bets) are less used in favor of straight hand value ranking.

On balance, though, I think that triple draw does not suffer as much from the 'schooling' problem. I would guess that neither Razz nor Stud/8 do, either. But I would like to hear others' thoughts.

[Yarney]

At 2/4 and 3/6 you don't have to just beat the bad players, but you also have to beat the rake. Also, the "everyone to the river" style of play can be frustrating to even the most seasoned pro, and I believe it is this frustration that the OP was referring to.

However you are right, the game should certainly be "beatable," its probably just not worth it.

-Yarney

[Tailgunner]

[ QUOTE ]
PL and NL games are rarely affected by 'schooling' in the true sense. To me, 'schooling' implies not just a lot of loose players, but a very specific situation in which the incorrect calls of the first players become correct because later players call as well. (For example, in LHE, a player calling getting 8:1 on his gutshot is incorrect--- but with three players calling behind him it becomes a correct call.)

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why I placed it in quotes.. yes, there is that aspect that is hurting me, but what I also mean is when I'm sitting on a table with eight fish and correctly bet to break the odds, but one or two of them (not always the same ones) are virtually guaranteed to call down and are catching their cards more often than the 1:8 (for example) times I need to win to make the bets profitable, thus the "school" defeats me.

Perhaps it's just a long run of bad luck. Personally I find it's a much more comfortable game where I have players of various skill levels, rather than a full table of donks.

I know this is not the only factor affecting my bankrolls, I'm just wondering where this aspect tapers off, so that I can prepare my next bankroll sufficiently. Rather than waste time (and possibly money) exploring them myself, I felt it was wiser to ask the opinions of those more experienced than I.

[ QUOTE ]
Your whines about sucking out speak to your ignorance.

[/ QUOTE ]

What whining? Yeah, I know a suckout when I see one, thank you very much. 70%+ ITM in SNGs with 150%+ ROI, it's just the low limit ring games that are giving me trouble. I've been funneling some of the profits into these games because I believe I can achieve a better hourly win rate compared to higher level SNGs where I may get crushed.

Perhaps I'm not beating them because my strategy is tailored to people of more skill in a different setting. I'm not pompous, I know I have other leaks that I am working on and I surely make mistakes, but the majority of my losses are from suckouts. Whatever the case may be, I have a problem, and even if my analysis of the reason is incorrect, I came here seeking a solution, not to complain.

...and I interpreted "other poker" as "stuff that didn't fit other categories", rather than "other variations of poker"... my bad [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

<font color="teal">~TG</font> [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]