Level 3 - TT - UTG

[Scuba Chuck]

Cactus, in general, there is no right or wrong way to play a lot of hands. This hand is a good example. But I'll comment on some of your thoughts.

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My future in this SNG is now.


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With a preflop stack of 800, I don't think this is a good thought process.

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Those left are waiting on "big hands."

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Unless you mean those left with smallish stacks, or those thinking players left with sub 20xBB stacks, then yes, but I don't necessarily agree with this thought either. The bigger stacks have many CEV opportunities yet on this level. And in general, there's always plenty of donkeys remaining.

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I can see a mini-raise. That would stop anyone from limping in with QJ

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Sigh. I wish. I think a 3xBB raise gets called by AJ+, TJ, QJ, KQ, and maybe KJ. The non-ace hands are usually a bigger stack at this point (and usually bigger stacks at this point are donkeys/ATMs). I think it also gets called by some pairs down to 99.

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A 3X raise puts me down to 650. Not exactly happy about that, but ok. A reraise and I'm going to have to push it or fold it

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Folding here, I think most of the time, is probably bad. I would have to have a serious read to fold here. I think the range of hands getting pushed over here (especially if it's a bigstack) is 66+/AJ+. TT has decent card equity against that range, and there's the dead chips factor.

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Limping is not an option. Too good a hand.

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As you can see it is an option. It really depends on your postflop and reading skills. If you limp, and somehow don't VPIP anymore, you're still left with a very workable stack. I couldn't fault anybody for limping here. I definately don't like limping here with 99 down though. With this stack, I'd feel compelled to fold those. Reason: I don't want to be in a position to put my tourney life on the line with 99- at this point.

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I may take the blinds, but I don't really want that result

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Huh, this was really the result I was hoping for. 75 additional chips is almost a 10% stack increase.

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...this hand is better than 75 chips. Raising the usual ...

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well, I'd be curious how you're playing TT usually. Pre L3, this is a limp/call-a-not-to-big-a-raise-hand for me. Post L3, I play this hand very hard if I'm first to enter the post. Post L5, there's a possibility I'm battling with this hand. TT is kind of like JJ sometimes.

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I'm even with AK and AQ

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You're ahead of these two hands. TT is a made hand. Where you get into trouble with pairs vs AK/AQ is pairs below 77.

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at some point I'll have to gamble it up. This is as good as any.


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Ok, this is the cruxt of the post. I read a post not too long ago from Nick B (TePop) where he said that if you're going to take this attitude, then raising to 150 here, is better than pushing, as it increases the number of hands that play back at you, rather than just limiting a push-call to hands like AK/JJ+. I think that our preflop stack is very troubling as we're sort of in between what line is best. If we had an 1100 stack, I think raising to 150 and check-folding to that flop is the best line. If we have 650 or less preflop, it's time to gambool. 800-1000 is just sort of in between. FWIW, of all the lines to take, I like pushing allin preflop the worst, more than folding.

Good luck at the tables
Scuba

[NegativeEV]

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So roughly, are you limp calling a shortie's AI? Are you RRing a raise from a stack that has you covered, or is it all depending on reads of the indiviual player?


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A lot can happen after I limp and I am very interested in what the shorty button does and what action preceded him. I think with the shorty button there is a good chance of getting him allin HU with some dead chips.


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Thats the way I was thinking about this hand: basically, is limping and having a high likliehood of wasting t50 (when 4 goto a flop) outweighed by the positive expectation of getting HU with some dead money?

I think this is fine too, but you have to decide what you are doing when all of the other possible circumstances occur. -i think we already mentioned that you are RRing allin from any raise behind, correct?


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I just think there are a lot of favorable situations that can develop when I limp here.

Sometimes I get HU with shorty allin preflop with dead chips- thats good.

Sometimes I am going to the flop with 2-4 others who have all limped where I will open push the 35% of the time that the flop is all unders and will check fold the rest. I don't mind this outcome for 50 chips preflop at all.

Sometimes I will fold preflop to heavy action after my limp. My stack is such that I'm just fine with this.

Opening to 125 or 150 decreases the chance that I'll be HU with shorty & dead chips preflop and the chance that I waste these 150 chips is similar to the chance of wasting 50 chips at the $22/$33s (i.e. I am likely to get 3 to the flop when I open 150 here in a $22/$33).

Short story is I like to see what happens after my limp and act accordingly given my stack and the others involved.

[Cactus Jack]

Thanks, Chuck. That is exactly what I was hoping to get with the added benefit of more discussion about this specific time in a tourney. I really don't disagree with any of your thoughts. This was a perfect hand to post, as it really falls into the "it depends" category. A few chips here or there would make it a completely different situation all together.

One thing I would like to discuss, not take issue with because that's far too strong. Taking the 75 chips as a win vs. "loss."

The reason why I'd be disappointed--albeit only ever so slightly, probably breathing a huge sigh of relief in reality--is because there are such huge chips swings between this point and when I'm the last one left at the table. I know I'll win and lose thousands of chips before the end. I may be down to 3BB or up 30BB. 75 just ain't worth playing for, at this point, any more than 30 are worth playing for in Level 1.

I agree that I might be pulling the trigger a little early, but not terribly. I know what's coming, and I might not see a better hand before then. Again, that's what makes this such a great situation for discussion. I'm looking ahead. Most of the other players at the table have all they can say grace over just looking at the two cards in front of them. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Really glad you posted this hand, and THANKS for taking the time to dissect my thought process.

CJ

[1C5]

Scuba, same situation with 50/100 blinds, you push PF right?

[Scuba Chuck]

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Scuba, same situation with 50/100 blinds, you push PF right?

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Unless I have a compelling reason not too, yes.

[Scuba Chuck]

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One thing I would like to discuss, not take issue with because that's far too strong. Taking the 75 chips as a win vs. "loss."

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I think you should consider the core strategy of a SNG first. The core strategy to beating this game is about being an expert of small stack play. Once you come to grips with this, I think you'll find an appreciation for accumulating chips without seeing a showdown much more. If your intent is to build a pot here, in the hopes of building your stack, I absolutely think limping is better here.

[patrick dicaprio]

have to raise here you may have the best hand and are out of position and you odnt want to see overcards come with you. why limp here? there arent enough implied odds for a set and most times you may get played off the hand or will have to check fold on the flop. a 2.5-3BB raise is fine here. pushing is not out of the question if only because it may be looked at as a bluff and you may get called as a favorite at most low buy in games.

Pat

[NegativeEV]

Note, I am limping here because of the stack sizes for hero and others at the table. There are many times I would raise here, I'm not advocating limping TT as a rule- each case gets evaluated based on the table layout.

[Cactus Jack]

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I think you should consider the core strategy of a SNG first. The core strategy to beating this game is about being an expert of small stack play. Once you come to grips with this, I think you'll find an appreciation for accumulating chips without seeing a showdown much more. If your intent is to build a pot here, in the hopes of building your stack, I absolutely think limping is better here.

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Would you happen to have a thread link you could point me toward? I think I know what you're talking about, but maybe not. I have no problems playing down to 5BB, but I'd rather not. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Could you please expand on "core strategy"?

[Scuba Chuck]

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have to raise here you may have the best hand and are out of position and you odnt want to see overcards come with you. why limp here? there arent enough implied odds for a set and most times you may get played off the hand or will have to check fold on the flop. a 2.5-3BB raise is fine here. pushing is not out of the question if only because it may be looked at as a bluff and you may get called as a favorite at most low buy in games.

Pat

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Pat, you can win this hand often enough without hitting your set (I think you flop unders 35-40% of the time). So using 35% plus the 12% of the time you set, you're looking at picking up a pot ~ 47% of the time (maybe optimistic). Anyhow, I'm just pointing out that limping for set value here isn't the only reason why hero limps.