Level 3 - TT - UTG - Page 2

Sciolist · #11 10-07-2005, 04:19 AM

I don't think there's any set value here. He has 900 chips and the BB is 50, you have to stack someone very frequently for an utg limp to be worthwhile, and if someone raises, you won't have any kind of odds to call on a set draw.

I am raising this 150-175, I'm passing to any kind of reraise, and I'm going to be likely making a decent bet on the flop unless it comes 2 overcards or I get more than one or two callers with an ace or king on the flop.

Scuba Chuck · #12 10-07-2005, 04:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't want K7 to see a free flop. Raise to 150, call any single push, just like you said.

TT is a strong hand, this is your chance to double up not lose 50 chips.

If I get called such that I am out of position, I bet any non A non KQ/KJ/QJ flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is interesting. Here's how the rest of the hand played out.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter

Button (t488)
SB (t1030)
BB (t1855)
Hero (t805)
MP1 (t972)
MP2 (t2205)
CO (t645)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t150, 2 folds, CO calls t150, 3 folds.

Flop: (t375) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

Hero?
 NegEV said the way I played it, this is a push here??

NegativeEV · #13 10-07-2005, 05:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Button (t488)
SB (t1030)
BB (t1855)
Hero (t805)
MP1 (t972)
MP2 (t2205)
CO (t645)

[/ QUOTE ]

The buyin impacts my play here somewhat. In a $11-$33 a preflop 125 raise (my standard on this level) gets a 3+ way pot in this spot too often for me to be comfortable from UTG (BB is calling and another call on the way is likely given 7 players left). This play was from a $22/$33 and Hero's stack is fine to limp and make a decision based on the action behind.

In a $109+ raising here will take the pot preflop or get HU enough that I like that play better there.

Cactus Jack · #14 10-07-2005, 07:11 AM

This is one of the best hand questions I've seen. IMO, there is no right way to play it, and no wrong way. Here's my thought process, ala the way Harrington does it in HOH.

Now, I'm going to play this hand. No way I'm folding it. There are no maniacs left at this point who are going to do something stupid. There's no big stack who will push me off. My future in this SNG is now.

Depending on the table and the history, the table is at its weaksest/tightest point. The blinds aren't high and the stacks aren't spread out. Those left are waiting on "big hands." This is a very good place to play this hand.

I can see a mini-raise. That would stop anyone from limping in with QJ or K7 at this point in the tourney, which is least likely to happen, anyway. It would leave me with 700 chips should something bad happen behind me, like a push and a call. I can certainly live with losing a hundred. A mini-raise here doesn't necessarily show weakness. Anyone who thinks it does, I'll play.

A 3X raise puts me down to 650. Not exactly happy about that, but ok. A reraise and I'm going to have to push it or fold it, neither of which makes me a happy camper. I may take the blinds, but I don't really want that result. 75 chips more isn't going to make me a favorite and this hand is better than 75 chips. Raising the usual and I may be crippled to the point of "it's just a matter of time," if it doesn't go my way, and there's lot of ways that aren't my way.

Limping is not an option. Too good a hand. A raise and I'm in the weeds. I'll have no idea where I am, other than out of position. I don't care for set value here, as a set would be overkill. Nice, but not reasonable.

I could push here. A semi-bluff. A little early to be changing gears, I'd rather it be the next round, but that's coming soon. They haven't seen me play many hands, and those they've seen me play, were most likely very good cards. I've got as much of a strong image at this point as I'm likely to have. Any 2 face cards and weak Ax could beat me, but it would be a pretty ballsy call and I'm ahead of them. I'm behind AA, KK, QQ, and JJ at this point, and would be very bad, but worse if I only raise. I'm even with AK and AQ. Everything else, I'm ahead, as long as it's only one caller.

A limp is out. A mini-raise and I may get 2 callers, one behind me and the BB or SB. 2 or more callers puts me at a severe disadvantage. A 3X raise puts my tournament on the line, sooner or later, regardless of the result if it's not a positive result. All in makes it likely that I'll get no more than one call. (More than one and I win, the cash register rings.) I've got a good hand in this spot, and at some point I'll have to gamble it up. This is as good as any.

I push it all in and take my chances.

CJ

bennies · #15 10-07-2005, 08:15 AM

I see 3 options:

1) Push
2) Check/Push (fold if villain pot commits himself)
3) Check/fold (call a tiny bet)

I prefer number 1.

durron597 · #16 10-07-2005, 08:48 AM

Assuming you always get allin on the flop against the CO, let's assume you have 7 outs twice (he has an ace and a KQJ). Thus you are about 28% to win by the river. You are getting 870:495 on your money, meaning out of 100 times you lose 35640 chips and win 24360, for an average loss of 113 chips. However if he folds to your push, you win the 375 chips in the middle, meaning you only need him to fold about 25% of the time for a push to be 0 EV. Of course if he has two pair you have 10 outs twice, and he might fold a hand like AJ (this is a small% of the time).

So yeah, I guess because of his short stack pushing is slightly +EV whereas folding is obviously 0 EV.

fnord_too · #17 10-07-2005, 09:43 AM

Pre-flop is really table/situation dependant for me. Usually I raise, sometimes I push. There are tons of factors that influence that decision. If I raise and someone pushes, the calling/folding decision really depends on who pushes. How aggressive they are preflop and their stack size will be big factors here. Also, if anyone is left in between us. If I limp and am raised, again, what I do is highly situationally dependant.

Post flop, more of the same. Depends entirely on the situation. Flop texture is huge, opponent is huge, how I have been playing hands and how many hands I have played is important. Opponent is huge. With a non ace one overcard board, there is a good chance I'm putting some chips in the pot, probably all of them if I am first to act and raised pre flop. Again, though, everything is very situationally dependant.

fnord_too · #18 10-07-2005, 09:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]

This is interesting. Here's how the rest of the hand played out.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter

Button (t488)
SB (t1030)
BB (t1855)
Hero (t805)
MP1 (t972)
MP2 (t2205)
CO (t645)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t150, 2 folds, CO calls t150, 3 folds.

Flop: (t375) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

Hero?
 NegEV said the way I played it, this is a push here?? 

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a horrible flop. I don't know what I do there. Sometimes I push, sometimes I check. Checking is not that bad, that is an uber scary board and villian is apt to check behind if it did not hit him thinking you could be trapping here. Pushing is not horrible since villian only has t500ish left, and the pot is 375. I think a lot here depends on how villain plays. Against an aggressive villain I am more apt to push, against a passive one I am more apt to check/fold the flop, and maybe bet the turn unimporved (though not push) or check if the flop gets checked through.

fnord_too · #19 10-07-2005, 09:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming you always get allin on the flop against the CO, let's assume you have 7 outs twice (he has an ace and a KQJ). Thus you are about 28% to win by the river. You are getting 870:495 on your money, meaning out of 100 times you lose 35640 chips and win 24360, for an average loss of 113 chips. However if he folds to your push, you win the 375 chips in the middle, meaning you only need him to fold about 25% of the time for a push to be 0 EV. Of course if he has two pair you have 10 outs twice, and he might fold a hand like AJ (this is a small% of the time).

So yeah, I guess because of his short stack pushing is slightly +EV whereas folding is obviously 0 EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is chip ev, not cashing ev (I don't know what cashing EV here is, because I am too lazy to calculate it, but cashing ev definitely needs to be considered here). Also, there is a chance he checks behind (I know you said assuming you always get all in on the flop, but I think that assumption is too big), so not pushing is not like open folding. Also, if he folds to your push, there is a good chance you had high pot equity, so you would win the 375 quite frequently even if you checked (unless he stole the pot from you).

#20 10-07-2005, 10:09 AM

PUSH