TT, pre-flop cold call.

[istewart]

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Are we folding the turn when he leads? If we're not, then raising the turn is better than calling. MP is probably on a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] draw; or he's an idiot. If MP 3-bets and UTG calls, we have an easy fold. If MP calls (as I expect he will) we're getting 2:1 on the raise, and our raise should strike the fear of God into UTG unless he's crushing us and is fearless. If UTG 3-bets, we should fold without a read. If UTG just calls, and no club falls on the river we can check it through (if MP bets, I'd call). The point is, we're either folding to the turn bet or we're doing what we can to both win the hand and get to showdown in the best possible way. If we're not folding on the turn, then raising is much better than calling. In fact, I'd rather raise against a solid player than a donk (a donk wouldn't have anything other than AA, maybe KK, if he three bets the flop - a solid player could have many other hands).

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You bring up good points.

IMO, after he 3-bets the flop, his range is (correct me if you think differently):

FWIW I am going to discount the big clubs a bit since he also leads the turn into more than one player.

K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] - 3/5 (Ahead) ---> 32 outs
K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] - 3/5 (Ahead) ---> 32 outs
A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] - 3/5 (Ahead) ---> 32 outs
A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] - 3/5 (Ahead) ---> 32 outs
A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] - 3/5 (Ahead) ---> 32 outs
88 - 3 (Behind) ---> 2 outs
99 - 4 (Ahead) ---> 44 outs
TT - 1 (Tie) ---> 23 outs (46/2? Is this wrong?)
JJ - 6 (Behind) ---> 2 outs
QQ - 6 (Behind) ---> 2 outs
KK - 6 (Behind) ---> 2 outs
AA - 6 (Behind) ---> 2 outs



This hand is a helluva lot easier to play if we reraise preflop, as I'm sure we can see at this point.

(96 + 6 + 176 + 23 + 12 + 12 + 12 + 12)/35 = 349/35 = ~10 outs.

Okay so clearly we want to continue it appears. This is different from what I originally though, so good.

Folding MP IMO is not THAT much of a concern here, but overall I agree with your point that using an extra bet to here to fold him off QJ (since there aren't many hands he has outs with if he's got a made hand since we have tens-up) and checking behind on the river (and folding to a turn 3-bet) is the best way to play this.

Of course this situation becomes tricky if we raise and both call.

I'd like to hear any thoughts you have on that.

[Catt]

Good post. I think his handrange can be wider, but it could also be much narrower (meaning we're in big trouble). Without a read on UTG I'm willing to put another bet in on the turn, and if he three-bets me I'll concede I'm dead at that point. The raise probably won't fold out MP (but if it does, great!). If he's on a draw or some losing hand, I want his bets padding the pot for me since there's a decent chance I am drawing to 2 outs. I also want to show more strength here on the turn because I believe, absent a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] falling on the river, this might very well be the last bet we have to put into the pot to see a showdown (unless we want to put in more). If we raise and both just call, then I'm treading carefully on the river, and almost certainly checking to MP if UTG checks to me.