20/40 4 handed valuebet?

[wackjob]

I want to C/R the flop because I think my hand is best & don't want to pay to see the river when it is not. I also like a turn raise because I want to extract more bets from hands I have beaten, isn't that what poker is about?

I very infrequently think a call down is the best play. I'd rather not give other drawing hands the odds to draw & beat me.

[dave44]

I don't have a problem with check-calling the flop and turn and bet/folding the river.

I think check-raising the flop gives hands that are way behind an easy chance to escape, while losing more to hands you're behind of which there are plenty.

[StellarWind]

Bet-folding the river has merit but I don't think you've fully explored the objections.

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his river aggression is highest of all his streets

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Given your wimpy-looking play I think there is a fair chance he will bet KK. I would.

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He could even have lower than 99 as pocket pairs like that get capped a lot headsups here.

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If he suspects that he has the lower of pocket pairs he may bluff the river but fold to a bet. The flush draw is a logical explanation for why you would call the turn with a medium pocket pair. With the Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] hitting it's very tempting to fire another barrel with 55.

There is also the simple fact that you are risking an 8 BB pot to occasionally steal an extra bet. Even if bluff raises are rare they will suck most of the EV out of your play. And why should they be so rare when your play is so transparent? You almost can't be slowplaying this nightmarish board. Unless you just rivered a set or aces up it's pretty clear that you don't have much. This is a good spot to stick a bluff in.

[ggbman]

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Bet-folding the river has merit but I don't think you've fully explored the objections.

[ QUOTE ]
his river aggression is highest of all his streets

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Given your wimpy-looking play I think there is a fair chance he will bet KK. I would.

[ QUOTE ]
He could even have lower than 99 as pocket pairs like that get capped a lot headsups here.

[/ QUOTE ]
If he suspects that he has the lower of pocket pairs he may bluff the river but fold to a bet. The flush draw is a logical explanation for why you would call the turn with a medium pocket pair. With the Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] hitting it's very tempting to fire another barrel with 55.

There is also the simple fact that you are risking an 8 BB pot to occasionally steal an extra bet. Even if bluff raises are rare they will suck most of the EV out of your play. And why should they be so rare when your play is so transparent? You almost can't be slowplaying this nightmarish board. Unless you just rivered a set or aces up it's pretty clear that you don't have much. This is a good spot to stick a bluff in.

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I was going to reply, but this post pretty much sums it up. One last thing is that you never want to find a way to fold top pair on the river in an aggressive game. Yes i know you miss a bet when he checks behind with KK, but you lose a lot more when pops you because he doesn't believe you and ends up bluffing out the best hand.

[Fortitude]

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Quote:
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his river aggression is highest of all his streets


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Given your wimpy-looking play I think there is a fair chance he will bet KK. I would.

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You're implying that there is a better line in this situation, I'd like to hear it.

I get what you guys are saying about folding to 1 bet on the river in big pots with top pair, especially super shorthanded (4 handed). I've just been getting much more sensitive with which hands I'll see showdown with.

[StellarWind]

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You're implying that there is a better line in this situation, I'd like to hear it.

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I'm suggesting that checkcalling the river might be a better play. Thought that was clear.

[OrianasDaad]

Value check.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Fortitude]

[ QUOTE ]
Given your wimpy-looking play I think there is a fair chance he will bet KK. I would.

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So what you mean by this is wimpy-looking but correct play? It looks like you were judging my river play based on some incorrect "wimpy-looking" play on earlier streets with a better line that you weren't voicing. No? Sorry.