Too Much All In Again?

[schroedy]

Sunday NL Tournament at the Normandie. If you have played it, you know the field is not extremely tough but there are some decent players in it.

Villian is big stack having just taken out 3-4 opponents at the table, but also losing to quad 9s. Hero is beginning to feel a little edgy with a stack (as will be seen) of slightly over 12 times the big blind.

Hero is seat 9 in the small blind with QQ (suits irrelevant). Villian is Seat 1 and UTG.

Villian throws in a raise of 5 times the BB UTG, representing over 40% of hero's stack. As the action proceeds around the table, seat 10 mutters that he wonders if he should stand up to that. Seat 9 mutters back, "You won't be playing this hand."

All fold. Seat 9 thinking that seat 1 is not the sort of player to kill all the action with AA or KK UTG, doesn't pause very long, and pushes all in.

Seat 1 mulls it over carefully and finally calls, turning up AKo.

A King comes on the flop, and my wife, who has been outlasting me in tournament play lately, questions whether I need to go all in here. As an aside, I have confessed to her that I think my NL strategy is better for a money game than a tournament. I do a good job of diagnosing when I am ahead and get all the money in when I am. But they call me and catch up. And all-in works until it doesn't, and in a tournament you are out when it doesn't.

Should I just call half my stack with QQ and see if an overcard flops? Suppose I do, and he faces me with a big bet when the King hits the flop? Then what?

Seriously, this is not a bad beat story. I feel like I am getting all in too much in tournament play, but I don't know what to do about it since I always fall back on the worn out saw, "I was ahead when the money went in."

(Some may recall a prior post on the same theme when I busted out with AA vs. QQ and a Q hit the flop in a Party Poker tournament.)

[Rizen]

Easy all in here. From the sound of things you have 12BB or so, if you can't push with QQ here I'm not sure what you're waiting for.

I'm sorry you busted, but I'll push with Queens here every time and not get upset if I get called by AK and get a chance to over double up. Bad beats happen, if you start folding QQ here you might start outlasting your wife occasionally, but you definitely won't be winning any tournaments.

-Rizen

[BettyBoopAA]

you played in right with 12 BB and QQ, you never call half your chips, your either playing for all your chips or your not.
You got your money in with the best hand, what more can you do? Most likely the villain has 88-JJ, AK, AQ. So just calling and folding if the overcards come is silly since you'll fold the best hand more times than you think.
To me this is a easy push, if has KK or AA well that's poker.

[schroedy]

It's an easy push to me too, but then I am not doing too well in multi-table format (I am a terror at the sit n go format).

In the longer tournament formats I fear I may be taking too many "easy pushes" against bigger stacks and busting out eventually because somewhere along the line they catch up.

If he has AA or KK UTG with that overraise, then he has made a deeper play than I was willing to give him credit for.

I see your point about not being able to get away from an overcard and I think he was the kind of player that would keep betting when the OC hits (as opposed to the kind that freezes up in that situation). So in my mind the chips are already in once I play, and that's why I pushed.

[schwza]

not pushing would be really bad.

[Black Aces 518]

I don't see any way in the world to do anything but push. Calling is basically half your stack. I don't think you can fold on an AK flop much less K-x-x. You should be licking your chops if you have 12BB and you get QQ and an early raise to 5 BB.

Any thoughts of a stop and go?

Probably wouldn't be the best move, since it gives him an opportunity to fold the worst hand on the flop.

But, say he has AKs, and he flops a 4 flush, the stop and go gives you the opportunity to prevent him from drawing out on you.

Personally, I would just push and let the card gods decide my fate. But, I could see a case for just calling here, then (since you are first to act post flop) pushing on any flop.

[Rizen]

[ QUOTE ]
Any thoughts of a stop and go?

Probably wouldn't be the best move, since it gives him an opportunity to fold the worst hand on the flop.

But, say he has AKs, and he flops a 4 flush, the stop and go gives you the opportunity to prevent him from drawing out on you.

Personally, I would just push and let the card gods decide my fate. But, I could see a case for just calling here, then (since you are first to act post flop) pushing on any flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

The original raiser was UTG, you can't stop n go when you have position.

-Rizen

[dmoney]

Ok, here is how I see it. I don’t like the allin push. I HATE getting all my money in preflop. I say just call it and see what the flop looks like, if ur pretty confident he holds ace king u can pretty easily fold if one flops and live to fight another day. I know it sucks but lets be serious. U can get ur money in in a better spot then a 57% to 43%. ZeeJustin opened my eyes wiht one of his posts about queens and how to not go all in with them. And I have to agree. Im doing my best to stop playing coin flips. They are detrimental to your tournament career. Look at Mike Matasow in this years WOSP. He played 6 coin flips in 5 days. And he is the only pro to make it to the final table. I found myself yearning for coin flips before but ill often fold ace king now if someone pushes all in and it will kill me to call. Even against the smallest pair its still a coin flip. I just don’t like it. Although my style is to see a lot of flops and try to trap/outplay other opponents. Since I have stopped getting involved in coin flips I have been much more successful late in tourneys.

here is a reason why coin flips are bad.

Say u had ace king. Ur opponent has 2,2.

The odds of u winning are 47%. Odds of him winning are 53%. That is VERY similar to playing black jack in a casino. And i have to say blackjack is a house game (as in the house will win eventually more money then u) This tells me that 1) i should not get involved in coin flips for all my money becuase it is a losing situation in the long run, u cant get lucky EVERY TIME.

Thats just me though.

In the immortal words of Jeff Probst. Outwit, Outplay, Outlast [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] haha lmao :P

YAY SURVIVOR

D$

[Black Aces 518]

Here you're in position, so the stop-n-go is no good. Two other factors would want me to not try it, even if OOP. 1) your hand is too good. You want his money in. If he has AA or KK, he's not going anywhere regardless. So in any other case you want his $$ in. 2) You don't have enough $$ left to push him off of anything post flop. He raised to 5 BB and say you call, making the pot 11.5 BB. You have 6 BB left, so he's getting almost 3 to 1 to call on the flop. Maybe he folds something like 77 on an AKJ flop, but why would you want him to?