well I got arrested

[HopeydaFish]

[ QUOTE ]
Rule #1: Don't talk to cops.

Rule #2: Don't talk to cops.

Rule #3: Don't talk to cops.

Get the point?


[/ QUOTE ]

I have a few lawyer friends and that's one of the things that they've said to me on many ocassions. If you have been arrested, the cops think you are guilty. Tell them forcefully and unequivocably that you want to speak to your lawyer. It is your right, and if they tell you that things will get worse for you if a lawyer is involved, don't believe them. There's no benefit in talking to them, they will only end up using your words against you to justify your arrest. They will ignore anything that doesn't implicate you. They will act like things will go easier on you if you cooperate, but this is BS. The cops are only there to investigate the crime, they don't decide on your punishment if you are found guilty. It is up to the courts to decide on punishment.

If you actually are guilty of the crime the cops arrested you for, don't confess to the cops. If you confess to the cops, the DA (or the Crown, here in Canada) will have no reason to go easier on you as they already have enough evidence to convict you thanks to your statements to police. Have your lawyer tell you when it is time to confess so that he/she can work out a plea agreement for you.

[Alobar]

effing awesome post

[rollingdirty]

[HopeydaFish]

[ QUOTE ]


Thus spake a person who has never been in jail.

Sure, you may win in court. But if they feel like it, you are going to spend the next few hours locked up. It's +EV to just explain to them why you're walking around in a neighborhood in the middle of the night.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a very sad statement. So much for your 4th amendment rights.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Honestly, I'd prefer to be thrown in jail unlawfully than to give up my personal freedoms, even just once. However, if I was jailed unlawfully, I can guarantee you that I would turn into the police department's worst nightmare once I was released. My lawyer friends would be getting lots of work.

[ChipWrecked]

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What did you do to get stopped?

This is why I hate cops. [censored] randomly questioning citizens without cause is bullshit.

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Are you obligated to provide ID to police officers in the states? I know in Canada the only time you are obligated to provide ID is if you are suspected of having committed a crime or if the cop witnessed you commit a traffic offence. Cops will give you attitude if you don't provide ID when they ask for it, but that's about it.

I had the same sort that happened to the OP happen to me a couple of years ago. I was cutting through a park on my way home from my girlfriend's house and as I exited the park a cop car pulled up and slammed on his brakes in front of me and threw his lights on. I just stood there and looked at the cop like he was a retard. He got out of the car and asked me why I was out so late. I asked him if there was a law against being out so late. He looked really pissed that I had answered his question with a question. He then asked me for ID, which was simply to intimidate me. I asked him if he suspected that I had committed a crime. The a$$hole replied "That's what I'm trying to find out". I told him that he could follow me home if he wanted, but I wasn't going to give him my ID because I hadn't done anything wrong. I was only a block from my house, and the guy actually followed behind me at 5mph the whole way, to check if actually lived in the neighbourhood, I guess.

It's one thing to be vigilant, it's totally another thing to randomly hassle people on the street, hoping that you'll stumble upon a criminal.

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Part of police work is PREVENTING crime, correct? Checking to see why some dude is wandering through a residential area in the middle of the night seems to fall into this category to me. I've had it done, I don't mind. I'd prefer they understand what's going on in the neighborhood rather than taking 20minutes to respond when called for an actual crime.

If the cop is a dick about it, thats a different story, but when you start a conversation with a police officer with "is it illegal to ..." you're just asking for a problem.

I guess I'm just old fashioned
ThisHo

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This is absurd. We live in a free society. Tell the cop it is none of his business (but in a polite way). You may still get arrested, but the cop will be violating your constitutional rights and you should win in court.

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Thus spake a person who has never been in jail.

Sure, you may win in court. But if they feel like it, you are going to spend the next few hours locked up. It's +EV to just explain to them why you're walking around in a neighborhood in the middle of the night.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never been in jail.

After saying that I will also say that the approach above is very dangerous in that it legitimizes the illeagal actions of the police officer who is being a dick in this situation. I'll reffer you to Jakes quote above.

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I can't believe I'm defending the actions of cops. But, part of a cop's job is checking out 'suspicious activity'. Walking through a residential neighborhood in the middle of the night is pretty damn suspicious.

[jakethebake]

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Walking through a residential neighborhood in the middle of the night is pretty damn suspicious.

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Are you serious?

[HopeydaFish]

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Kinda stating the obvious here.

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True, but despite how obvious it is, most people choose not to follow this advice. My lawyer friends are constantly bemoaning the fact that their clients allowed themselves to be interrogated without calling a lawyer first. People either think they can talk their way out of trouble, or they believe the police when they say that "things will go easier if they cooperate". Just call a lawyer. Let him/her tell you what to do.

[ThisHo]

All good points.

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It is, but there's a fine line between preventing crime and infringing on my rights. I should be allowed to walk around my neighbourhood without being stopped and questioned by police. Being stopped simply for walking down the street at night and being ordered to produce ID may not seem like all that an egregious violation of someone's rights. It's violating my freedom of movement, and I don't like that. I shouldn't need the permission of the police to walk down my street at night.

It's a slippery slope when you start allowing the authorities to take away bits and pieces of your freedoms. Where does it stop? Should I also have to submit to a search of my person if the officer demands it? After all, I could be carrying something illegal -- and we do want to "prevent crime" don't we?

[/ QUOTE ]

Were you carrying something illegal?

I agree that this is a VERY fine line. I think you are correct that your rights are being infringed upon here when he stops you just because you are walking around at night. You're right, it is a slippery slope .. where does it stop. How long before gun "registration" leads to "confiscation" .. how long before random stops on the street lead to random home searches. How long before "probable cause" means "he looked shady to me". No doubt that these things can happen and all under the guise of "public safety."

That said... I don't think its a huge deal for a cop to see someone wandering a neighborhood in the middle of the night and stop to ask him what he's doing/where he's going.

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Quote:
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If the cop is a dick about it, thats a different story, but when you start a conversation with a police officer with "is it illegal to ..." you're just asking for a problem.


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The cop was a dick about it. He was treating me like he suspected that I was up to no good, rather than treating me with respect. He was acting like a bully, and law abiding citizens have a right not to be bullied by the police. As for me "asking for trouble" -- do you understand how horrible that sounds? So because I bruised the cops ego by not immediately kowtowing to his demands, I'm "asking" for my rights to be violated? That's absurd.


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"asking for it" is absurd, you're right. Poor choice of words and even if you're an ass, the cop shouldn't be. Point taken. You keep saying "bullied" / "questioned" / "he was a dick" ... at what point BEFORE you were an ass to him was he a dick?

Perhaps I'm not getting the whole picture here, but what I'm seeing is:
Cop : "Stop - what are you doing out here in the middle of the night."
You : "is it illegal to be out here in the middle of the night?"
Cop : "Alright smart ass, lets see some ID."
You : "why should I show you ID?"
Cop : "I want to know who you are and what you're doing around here at this time of night. Now get me the ID."
You : "I live around here."
Cop : "get me the ID."

I'm just thinking that if you're first answer is : "I'm on my way home from my GFs and I live 2 blocks over on XXX St" it would have gone MUCH better.

anyhow... no, he had no absolute "right" to stop you and yes its a slippery slope and yes I probably don't take this sort of stuff serious enough.

Quick Question:
what is your opinion of DUI Checkpoints? Totally illegal searches or effective prevention/deterrent/protection?

ThisHo

[HopeydaFish]

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Walking through a residential neighborhood in the middle of the night is pretty damn suspicious.

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Are you serious?

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Sadly, I'm sure he is.

My girlfriend got pulled over a few years ago when she was driving home at 2 A.M. A cop had been following her for some time. When she asked why the cop had pulled her over, he told her "You were driving too deliberately, and stopping too long at the last couple of stop signs. It seemed suspicious." She had to sit there in her car and wait while he went back to his car (presumably to run her information through his computer to see if there was any warrants, etc...), before he finally let her go.

So in some cases, the mere act of not acting suspicious is seen as acting suspicious.

[ThisHo]

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Part of police work is PREVENTING crime, correct? Checking to see why some dude is wandering through a residential area in the middle of the night seems to fall into this category to me. I've had it done, I don't mind. I'd prefer they understand what's going on in the neighborhood rather than taking 20minutes to respond when called for an actual crime.

If the cop is a dick about it, thats a different story, but when you start a conversation with a police officer with "is it illegal to ..." you're just asking for a problem.

I guess I'm just old fashioned
ThisHo

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Old fashioned? I can't tell from this post. A jackass? Yes, definitely.

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feel free to disagree with me, but I'm not sure how "jackass" can be inferred from this post. I'm actually trying to take the arguments you and hopeydafish are putting forth seriously and I'm thinking "hmmm... perhaps I am too relaxed on this stuff," ... you calling me a jackass because you disagree with me is pretty much BS.

ThisHo