JJ out of position

[KHALI]

8/16 at Wynn, decent table with some good players. UTG is good player.

UTG raises, folded to me in BB with Jd Js. I three bet and UTG calls.

Flop is Td 7c 3s. Hero bets and UTG raises. Here are two lines I thought about, comment on both knowing opponent is aggressive.

A) three bet and lead out no matter what hits turn or if he caps it then check call if turn is not scary(AK).

B) call and look to check raise on a non scary turn card. I would say he would bet out unimproved almost 100% in this situation.

Are these resonable lines and which would you prefer heads up out of position against aggressive player who is probably on AK, AQ, KQsuited, ATsuited range of hands maybe 88 and up(77 possible?)Think he would have waited till turn with TT and 77 though and KK, AA he would have capped preflop or waited till turn to come alive. QQ maybe seeing where he is on flop but still strange. Just thinking out loud here I guess. What range would you place him on and what are most likely?

[shant]

3-bet, lead any turn.

[sy_or_bust]

You should play straightforward and 3-bet flop/lead turn. Checkraising the turn is weaker, mostly because Villain will often take a free card with overs.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet, lead any turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup. I don't [censored] around out of position.

Rob

Hi,
I had a question about that. I've heard people say lead when there are overcards out there. Can someone explain what the rationale behind that is. If I have JJ and a Q falls on the turn, betting into the turn, will only result in a raise(if my opponent happens to have a Q) and me going into call down mode anyway. Why not go into calldown mode if overcard hits.

When you win you win(might induce bluffs so extra bets). When you lose it's the minimum. The River might help your opponent and give him a better hand than yours, but not so often that it makes leading out on the turn and risking getting raised a +EV play. Am I missing something? I'm weak passive when overs hit to my PP but want to understand the reasons to be otherwise.

[malorum]

You don't need to understand the basis for the heuristics you use to play effective poker, or to change your play if required. It all depends what your motivation for playing is I guess.

[shant]

The reasoning I can give for this hand is if you 3-bet and he still raises you on the turn, especially if it's an over, you can start to figure out you're behind and possibly get away from your hand.

Also, if your opponent in this hand raised with AT or AK, why are we giving him a chance to take a free card?

[callmedonnie]

I like three betting and leading turn. OOP with a good player sucks. w/ ak he would have capped probably, maybe AQ too w/ position. he could easily have kq,a10, and no matter what, i want to make him pay for overs.

[Carmine]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi,
I had a question about that. I've heard people say lead when there are overcards out there. Can someone explain what the rationale behind that is. If I have JJ and a Q falls on the turn, betting into the turn, will only result in a raise(if my opponent happens to have a Q) and me going into call down mode anyway. Why not go into calldown mode if overcard hits.

When you win you win(might induce bluffs so extra bets). When you lose it's the minimum. The River might help your opponent and give him a better hand than yours, but not so often that it makes leading out on the turn and risking getting raised a +EV play. Am I missing something? I'm weak passive when overs hit to my PP but want to understand the reasons to be otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

One overcard does not make any PP a definate loser especially HU. If you check he will check behind with worse hands often. Thus you are giving him a free card and infinate odds to draw out on you. He also has to be concerned that you may have just hit. You make them be the one with the tough decision. If you are raised then you can calldown if you like. Your play actually depends on your opponent.

[ThomasPHoolery]

we had a very similar discussion about the same situation a little while back:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...art=1&vc=1

the question here was does, simply calling preflop with the intention of checkraising an orphan flop give you more information. You can assume that the UTG player will make a continuation bet on the flop, and your check raise on the flop will better define his hand. Again, this depends heavily on quality of UTG player, and what sort of hands you expect him to raise UTG.
I don't know the answer to this question. I think playing JJ and 1010 OOP heads up vs an early position (good) raiser is one of the harder things to do in low-limit hold em. The goal (I think) is trying to define your hand on early streets and not to force yourself to try to define your hand on the turn.