Education in the United States, problems and solutions (long)

[lehighguy]

agreed

[natedogg]

I have no problem saying I think most people aren't bright enough to know how best to fix the schools, how best to insure their children get the best education, etc.

Of course they aren't. But again, I disagree that it is the state's role and right to step in and give a committee of bureaucrats the right to make those decisions.

I didn't expect to see such an outright admission of elitist authoritarianism from you. You central planning types are amazing.


There's two different (and very emotional) issues here; who has the RIGHT to make these decisions and who can make the BEST decision in there areas..

Labeling the issue emotional doesn't help. The question who can make the BEST decision is certainly up for grabs, but the question of who has the RIGHT should not be.

I strongly support freedom and liberty, even if it means that some portion of the population will make mistakes with their liberty. Some people apparently do not. And this doesn't even touch on the fact that you are living in a dream world if you think the state can mitigate personal foolish decisions.

natedogg

[natedogg]

requires login
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/07/op...amp;oref=login

no login:
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3786

natedogg

[[censored]]

Step 1: Read OP

Step 2: Search for Natedogg replies

Step 3: Read said replies, think about if I agree or disagree.

In this case I pretty much agree 100%

[lastchance]

Just one thing. If American educational system is terrible compared to most first-world countries, (and most people would agree it is), then couldn't one simply poach off those countries that have superior educational systems?

[lehighguy]

There are good and bad facets of foriegn educational systems. Understanding how to get the good without the bad requires some of the critical thinking OP demonstrated.

[lehighguy]

good articles.

if you dont have an NYT acount know getting a login is free if you want to read the articles

[lastchance]

True dat. Still, getting the good with the bad is better than some state's educational systems.

[ACPlayer]

If a voucher system was started tommorrow it woudl create a HUGE market for educational services.

You dont get it. If you want to gut the public school system then do that and get rid of the process of collecting taxes and then distributing vouchers. Let the people not pay property school taxes (and corresponding lower rents) and simply pay for the education be writing a check. Dont collect money for a public system and then funnel the money back into vouchers.

Vouchers are not free money from the government they come from our taxes.

Do you really believe that schools can't provide a quality education for the same tuition that is effectively being charged when we attend public

You are the one that doesnt believe it. Instead of working to improve the system, or even arguing for trying to improve it, you are arguing to gut it.

I think that the schools can provide a quality education for the money that is being raised and that it is not a good idea to remove money from the system, but to fix the system. I suggest the following:

1. Remove federal mandates.
2. Charge a modest tuition for all students, with exceptions for the poorest. The reason is that when the parents write a check every quarter they are more likely (IMO) to be involved. People now consider schools as an entitlement.
3. Make it easier for outstanding local non-teachers and local professionals to teach in schools.
4. Work with local industry to understand what vo-tech programs should be implemented and perhaps obtain funding.
5. Learn from the excellent schools

I am not in the educational system so I cannot say whether these would work or whether there are other ideas that should be implemented.

The bottom line is, IMO, if we raise money from the public for a public school system them keep that money in the public schools and fix the system. If we dont want a public financed school system, then gut it, kill the property tax charges and make it a private free for all.

[Cornell Fiji]

I am sorry if I am repeating the comments of others. I have not yet read the replies, I have simply posted my comment from This thread on the topic made in OOT in Feb.

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I think that one of the myriad of factors that drives our suboptimal educational system is definitely the teachers and their wages etc. The curriculum also needs to be altered and there are other issues in there as well that need to be changed.

In New Jersey, and I believe almost every other state (although I am not sure of this) the Teachers Association (evil union) has handcuffed the state government into accepting a contract that includes tenure. Tenure is the one of the biggest reasons that our educational system is not what it should be.

In New Jersey teachers are pobationary for their first two years on the job. As a probationary hire a teacher does not recieve the full benefits of membership in the teachers union, mainly they are subject to employment at will, meaning that they can be fired for poor performance.

Once the third year begins however the teacher CAN NEVER BE FIRED without just cause (ie hitting a kid, coming to work under the influence, or forgetting that evolution is only a 'theory' in Southern states.) This means that a teacher can not be fired because they are bad at what they do, in fact if there is a really bad teacher who begins her third year of service in your school district she might be there for the next fifty years.

Furthermore, the teachers union's collective bargaining agreement is set up so that their salary is based SOLELY on the basis of seniority. Every year that they stay with the school they are given a standard increase regardless of their abilities, motivation, or performance.

Human nature is to be selfish and to only do things that benefit ourselves in some way. The primary motivation for teachers is their salary and benefits, although some are intrinsically motivated by the feeling that they get from helping a student. Because of the teachers union, wages and benefits are gauranteed and no longer can be used as an incentive. Therefore the only incentive for a teacher to work hard is an intrinsic desire to help others. Unfortunately, this desire often wears off after a few years thus leaving many teachers unmotivated.

The current educational system now has teachers in their first two years who are inspired to do a good job (so that they can reach tenure and slack off) and older teachers who simply don't care anymore. In my oppinion that the job security and wages/benefits gauranteed by the teachers union that in turn decrease incentives for teachers to do a good job which in turn decrease their motivation is one of the main reasons that our educational system is not up to par.



One person made the following argument in the thread:

[ QUOTE ]
currently, our public school system isn't a free market system where wages can be determined by consumer demand. all I am saying is that if they pay teachers better, they will probably get better teachers. how do go about doing that, I am not sure of.



[/ QUOTE ]

To which I replied:


Although paying teachers more would be nice I think you used the perfect word here. We need to pay our teachers "better" meaning that we pay them for merit and not tenure. Unfortunately that is absolutely impossible given the current laws that we have protecting unions and the rights of union members. As long as there are unions there will always be seniority based pay and as long as there is seniority based pay performance will not matter and whenever performance doesn't matter teachers will have no incentive to do a better job. So in short, were fuked until we can change the laws that protect unions.

-Steve