Medium PP facing big preflop raise

Verdi · #1 05-23-2005, 05:39 PM

Rate my line. I know that if the preflop bet means big pocket pair I'm screwed. But even then I could hit a set and take his entire stack. (If the probable final pot is bigger than 8x the raise it's still good, right?) And if it's AK/AQ and he misses the flop I can take down a good pot too.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

MP3 ($25)
CO ($45.6)
Button ($39.3)
SB ($36.88)
BB ($26.25)
UTG ($20.75)
UTG+1 ($1.75)
UTG+2 ($17.18)
Hero ($32.82)
MP2 ($23.65)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.25, MP2 raises to $3, 3 folds, SB (poster) calls $2.90, 1 fold, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls $2.75.

Flop: ($9.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $5, MP2 calls $5, SB folds.

Turn: ($19.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $16

, MP2 folds.
Final Pot: $35.50

LuckYou777 · #2 05-23-2005, 06:02 PM

you're not considering enough factors here.

wihout flopping a set, or to a lesser extent, getting a 4-4-3 rainbow flop, your hand is very difficult to play, making this a not profitable call. you're caught between a raiser and someone who called a strong raise OOP.

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And if it's AK/AQ and he misses the flop I can take down a good pot too.

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flop comes K-7-2 rainbow. does he have a-k or a-q? you don't know, because you're first to act. see what i mean?

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But even then I could hit a set and take his entire stack.

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only if a) he has high cards and hits the flop/turn/river hard enough to stack off or b) he has a high PP. if you hit a set, you might get no action.

fold preflop.

Verdi · #3 05-23-2005, 06:09 PM

Well, if there is a K on the flop and he comes out betting again I must obviously fold...

I understand that it wasn't the perfect play but the table was full of LAGs and such preflop raises was rather common.

But yes, I put myself in a really nasty situation. Especially when he called my flop bet. I didn't really know what to do on the turn but I decided to push to protect what I thought was the best hand.

LuckYou777 · #4 05-23-2005, 06:19 PM

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Well, if there is a K on the flop and he comes out betting again I must obviously fold...

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the table was full of LAGs

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see, this is the problem with being OOP like this.

scenario- K-7-2 rainbow flop. SB checks. now what? mp2 can't "come out betting" right now because its your turn to act. if you bet, and he calls, you're done. and even if he folds, you still have the SB to worry about, as he could be checking to the preflop raiser with intentions to c/r. even a check-call, and you'd have to slow down. conversely, if you check, the LAGgy preflop raiser could concievably take a stab at the pot with air, and you fold the best hand.

just not enough factors in your favor to call that preflop raise.

theblitz · #5 05-23-2005, 06:41 PM

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(If the probable final pot is bigger than 8x the raise it's still good, right?)

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No.
It's the smaller of your two stacks that counts. You can't win more than he has and you can't take from him more than you have. You must compare the amount to call to the amount you can expect to win. Remember that half the final pot will be money you put in.

So, the standard 5/10 rule applies:

If the call is less than 5% of the smaller of your 2 stacks then it is an automatic call.
If it is more than 10% then it is an automatic fold.

In between it is a judgement call.

poboy · #6 05-23-2005, 09:24 PM

His stack is not big enough to justify this call, you both would need stacks of ~$60 to make this call correct. Also this may be too weak-tight but don't get so involved with undercard flops. Even if he doesn't have a bigger pair, he will often catch or appear that he caught something by the river. If he suddenly springs to life when an over hits you have to give it up(and there are alot of overs to 88). Unimproved medium pockets rarely take down big pots and you are the one bloating this pot. I prefer check and fold to any real bet, and coming over the top of any weak bet. But you really shouldn't be in this situation to begin with. JMO