What do you do on this river?

[Tilt]

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I like a check raise here to induce the bluff (if he is an aggressive player)

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I don't like this at all.

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If he had the flush draw he would have bet the flop

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really? I think alot of people check hoping to get a free card. esp. in late pos.

I think you check/fold the river. I agree that raising on the flop to see where you are is a good idea but since you didn't and DON'T know where you are...check/fold [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Don't be seduced by a pretty hand.

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This is the terrible weak tight thinking.

Villain raises preflop. Flops a flush draw, and its checked around to him. Lets say you know he is an aggressive player. You think he would not make a continuation bet on that flop????? But then waits until the turn to make a semi-bluff?????

And so if you are not afraid of the flush, what possible hand takes villains line that you are afraid of at the river? TT? Maybe, but if so you lose some chips on this hand. Play generally like a scared rabbit, however, and you will lose many bankrolls.

[go fish]

Actually I live by the "no set, no bet" rule when it comes to pairs lower than TT, but that flop was checked around. My interest is all of a sudden back after that. I can probably get anyone with a T to lay down when I lead out betting on the turn. It's the slow-playing flush draws and Qs that I have to worry about...and to some degree the ones with a straight.

No way am I folding the river if I'm still in, but then playing that way has made me lose a sizeable amount of chips in the past.

[ekky]

at this stage I am not unduly concerned about figuring out his hand. I can find this out perfectly by check/calling.

If I raise my x amount and get re-raised..... its a tough call.

If i check and call x amount, I get to see the showdown.

If you want to figure out a persons hand, dont wait til the river in shallow(ish) stack poker, because by then it will generally cost you too many chips.

There is nothing worse then committing chips to a pot on the river and then having to fold with 0 chance of winning/folding the best hand. Check/calling almost eliminates this risk

[pergesu]

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Actually I live by the "no set, no bet" rule when it comes to pairs lower than TT, but that flop was checked around. My interest is all of a sudden back after that.


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It shouldn't be.

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I can probably get anyone with a T to lay down when I lead out betting on the turn.

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No you won't. Some dumbass is going to call with a T or 8, and fold to a bet on the river. But when you get called on the turn, you can't bet the river (except in the very special case you hit your set), and then the dumbass with the T or 8 laughs at you.

[pergesu]

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There is nothing worse then committing chips to a pot on the river and then having to fold with 0 chance of winning/folding the best hand. Check/calling almost eliminates this risk

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You assume, for whatever reason, that villain has hero beat. Yeah, sometimes he'll have to fold, but most of the time he'll get called by a weaker hand and make some dough.

Bet for value here, and CONSIDER folding to a SIZABLE raise.

[Tilt]

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Check/Call the river, it's a nice sized pot and you would be happy to take down a $600 pot. If you have him beat he is not going to call a large check raise anyway to make it worth the risk and against solid players you are asking for someone to come over the top of you with a bluff which makes for a truly difficult decision.

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Its not a difficult decision. You c/r for value. He pays you off with his pair. I don't see how any hand that beats you rationally takes this line, except for maybe TT. Given the percentage of times that the villain here has a better hand that busts you vs. how much prize equity you can earn from a c/r here I still do it.

[ekky]

this assumes villain MIGHT have us beat.

Whats your line on check/raising? I dont think it has a lot of value in the fact that I cant see too many hands paying off a check raise on that river that you can strangle?

(one thing I might be doing wrong is not taking into account the stakes/likely players at this level...I tend to try and think of generally correct moves.. I think this might be my fundamental error on here to date)

[go fish]

Well it wasn't the river that I was waiting for...I would figure it out on the turn by leading out the betting. But of course I should have been done with the hand after the flop...I just can't help myself after it was checked around...I feel like I have a shot at this pot and I want the flush draws to go away now.

The only problem I have with check/calling on the river is that you made your hand. I just find it really difficult with all the possible hands out there to check on these things...people with a straight may lay down and that's one hand that beats you. People with a pair will probably lay down but then they may not bet anyway after a check. I don't know. What you say has some merit, but I still like being the one betting better than being the one calling. I guess I just figure that if he has a better hand than me, and I bet, he either calls (so I lose the same amount of money I would have lost anyway if I had check/called), or he raises (so I probably fold, and again lose the same amount of money I would have lost if I had check/called). He could potentially fold if he had a straight, so I win when I shouldn't. If I have a better hand he either folds (yay), or calls (yay), or maybe potentially raises (ugh). Overall I still like betting into it.

What would you do if the river was a 3h? Check/fold?

[go fish]

You're right, my interest should not be back after the checks. It's a trap I fall into quite a lot.

However, sometimes I am going to get the T to lay down on a turn bet. What am I showing when I lead out the turn betting? T? Slow-played Q? Straight? If villain with T puts me on 2 of those 3, he should be gone. If he puts me on the T, he may call regardless of his kicker. In some cases he may raise.

You're right about it being stupid to even have anything to do with this hand after the flop, but I really feel like I can make something happen here in most instances. I can make the flush draws go away, and I only really need to worry about people with a set, people with a straight, and people with a Q or T. Representing a hand could work here. And when I luck out with the river I'm in even better shape...

...even better shape to lose most of my chips, that is. Haha.

[ekky]

I think its almost impossible that a straight here lays down, so thats not an immediate concern.

I dont know how to quote yet, so i will copy/paste

" I guess I just figure that if he has a better hand than me, and I bet, he either calls (so I lose the same amount of money I would have lost anyway if I had check/called), or he raises (so I probably fold, and again lose the same amount of money I would have lost if I had check/called)"

this is the basis of my check/call argument... by doing this you at least get to see the showdown and there is no confusion as to whether you folded the best hand, and if you didn't, you lose the same.


"He could potentially fold if he had a straight, so I win when I shouldn't."

I dont see a better hand then yours folding here in a gazillion light years.

"If I have a better hand he either folds (yay), or calls (yay), or maybe potentially raises (ugh). Overall I still like betting into it."

so, he is unlikely to fold a better hand (nay, almost impossible..) he calls with a worse hand (this is the risk we take) or raises with a) better hand b) worse hand (this is a terrible scenario)

This is why overall I much prefer the check/call then the bet/fold IF we get raised up.