Dynasty says no

[D. Andrew]

Been some time since I last posted. Played at the Mirage 6-12 today and ran into our beloved Dynasty. Relayed this hand to him and he did not like some of it.

4 limpers to me in the SB, I raise with black Aces. BB calls, limpers call.

FLOP: Jc 7d 7h - I bet, Limper 1 folds, Limper 2 folds, 3rd Limper raises. I do not recognize the limper, but he is an older man wearing an Orleans Jacket. 4th Limper folds, I call.

TURN: 6h [Jc 7d 7h] - I check call.

RIVER 2h [Jc 7d 7h 6h] - I bet, Opponent raises, I fold.

Comments appreciated.

[bernie]

couldnt the guy have played this way with an overpair or just top pair? it's HU...id have called him down at least...

you missed some info on whether he will play trips this fast. many dont. they wait for the turn to lower the boom...
but now you know nothing more about him than you did before the hand.

b

[J.R.]

I wouldn't have bet the river without planning to call a raise.

You are either way ahead or way behind, there aren't many draws out there. You raised from the SB and an old man raised you. I think letting an aggressive or unknown opponent bet your hand for you is best, as I don't think you can lay this down and are likely ahead here. Even though the opponent is an old man, I still think he would wait until the turn or river to pop you with trips and position, so I think the flop raise says J.

Your passive play sets you up for a bluff raise on the river when you come back to life, so you have to call.

Because this player was an unknown I would check-call the rive, although there is a good case for betting and calling a raise.

[KUBowler99]

Preflop-
Standard

Flop-

I prefer a reraise on the flop to a flat call in this situation. I know your opponent is an unknown, but if I held a jack in his position, I would also raise with the intention of betting if checked to on the turn. A reraise by you on flop will either win you the hand right then, or slow down the agressor (with position). If he flat calls, lead the turn. If he comes back over the top, you can safely laydown your bulls.

Turn & River

Since you didn't reraise the flop, you should check-call on both.

[Jim Easton]

I think you have to call the river. He knows that 6 didn't help you. Your check on the turn told him he was in the lead, therefore, he was still in the lead. Either that or he had the jack of hearts with another big heart, I still think you have to pay it off.

His flop raise screams top pair (I discount overpairs because he didn't raise or reraise). He had it heads up, so there was no reason for him to slow you down if he had a 7 or JJ. I also think an old man in an Orleans jacket is more likely to have 2 big cards with a jack, than a 7. I would either reraise the flop, or check raise the turn (and re-evaluate the situation if he 3-bets).

Once you decided to go to check and call mode, you should have stayed there. That one bet you lost on the river could have been a check and call to see his hand. Win or lose, at least you get some information.

[Ed Miller]

I think your river fold was very bad. If you put your opponent on a Jack after his flop raise, then checking and calling is fine because he is left with only two outs to beat you if ahead, but you only have two outs to beat him if behind.

I don't think betting the river is a bad play, but you have to do so with the intention of calling a raise... not folding to it.

[Bob T.]

I think that if you are going to get off of this hand, you need to do it on the turn, if you bet the turn, and get raised again, then it might be ok to fold. I think on the river, you just throw in one more bet here, and then say 'nice hand, sir' if you are beat. In fact, since you seemed to want to bet the river, but not call a raise, I would have check called on the river also.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[polarbear]

4 limpers to me in the SB, I raise with black Aces. BB calls, limpers call.

FLOP: Jc 7d 7h - I bet, Limper 1 folds, Limper 2 folds, 3rd Limper raises. I do not recognize the limper, but he is an older man wearing an Orleans Jacket. 4th Limper folds, I call.

TURN: 6h [Jc 7d 7h] - I check call.

I know nothing about how older men with Orleans Jackets play, but preflop raises in the blinds are usually only done with big pairs, and sometimes AK. Sure, a few players raise with suited connectors in this situation, or Ax suited, but most 6-12 players don't think about that. This means his flop raise represents trips. However, he might slowplay the 7 if he had it, or try and buy a free card with a J or pocket pair. Your preflop, flop, and turn plays are fine.

RIVER 2h [Jc 7d 7h 6h] - I bet, Opponent raises, I fold.

You can't fold. If your opponent is not a total fish, he knows it's highly unlikely for you to have more than a pair of aces. Therefore, when he raises, he knows you probably can't beat what he's representing, and he knows there's a chance you will fold. Since it's hard for you to beat trips regardless of what you have from your opponents point of view, there's a good chance the raise is a bluff, and you must call the raise.

I would either:

a. Reraise the flop, bet the turn, and bet the river. If he 4-bets the flop, check-call the rest of the way. If he raises you on the turn, call the turn and river. If he 4-bets the flop and checks the turn, bet the river.

b. Call the flop, check-call the turn and river. If your opponent checks the turn, bet the river.

[AceHigh]

"I bet, Opponent raises, I fold."

I don't like this line on the river. I know it works for Tommy Angelo, but it doesn't for me. Like Bob T. said, the time to fold this hand is the turn, not the river.

[Clarkmeister]

I've read all the responses and I don't think there is even a 1% chance that D. Andrew's hand is good when he is raised on the river. In fact, I think that on the river we can specifically put his opponent on 76, with a remote chance at AhJh or JJ. In fact, I can think of a couple of times where Sklansky has advocated playing this type of hand in exactly this manner when a river raise means you are certainly beat. Which in this case it does IMO.

I think the only other viable line he could take is to 3 bet on the flop. However, if he is 4 bet, then the pot is big enough to see the turn. If he is flat called, then he must lead and muck if raised as he certainly cannot check-fold. If he is 4 bet, this line saves him 2sbs vs. the line he took. If he is smoothcalled and raised on the turn, it saves him 1sb.

For those who don't know: Old men in Orleans jackets don't try to push people off pocket AA. They fold. And they certainly don't bluff raise on the river, especially with a full house and a flush out.