Hand values in maniac games

[PokerFink]

Assuming all flops are multi-way and raised (5+ handed for 3-4 bets) you want to play all pocket pairs for set value, high suited cards, and suited connectors and suited one-gappers.

Stay away from bad multi-way hands, such as A2o - AJo, K2o-KJo.

Hands that can make the nuts a lot, such as AXs, 10J etc. are much more valuable, because you can catch people with lower flushes/straights.

Don't become married to your big hands if the flop is bad.

Don't see the turn just because the pot is big on a bad flop. It's frustrating to put in 4 bets to see an ugly flop with 10Js and have to dump it, but that is going to happen in this game.

[GreywolfNYC]

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming all flops are multi-way and raised (5+ handed for 3-4 bets) you want to play all pocket pairs for set value, high suited cards, and suited connectors and suited one-gappers.

Stay away from bad multi-way hands, such as A2o - AJo, K2o-KJo.

Hands that can make the nuts a lot, such as AXs, 10J etc. are much more valuable, because you can catch people with lower flushes/straights.

Don't become married to your big hands if the flop is bad.

Don't see the turn just because the pot is big on a bad flop. It's frustrating to put in 4 bets to see an ugly flop with 10Js and have to dump it, but that is going to happen in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Best reply so far. Anyone else?

[carokann]

Let me take a shot at this.. I'm not the best player in the world, but I play fairly often in games like these. One thing I have observed is that there is really no such thing as a "maniac." These guys are very good hand readers, and aren't putting in a lot of money post-flop unless they have a real chance to win. i.e. they either have a hand, *OR* they sense they can blow you off yours. You will often see them cap pre-flop and then lay down on the flop for one bet. So.. don't put in a lot of money on a bluff or a weak hand.
A lot of people say someone is a maniac because he "bet the whole way and raised the river with 9 high!" but actually the board was rags, and the maniac put them on a weak hand or draw that was foldable. I rarely, if ever, see a maniac re-raise the raiser on a flop of AKx, without holding an A or better in their hand.
Also, a large part of their strategy is to put the table on tilt and create action for themselves. Once they realize you are not tilting for them, and you are coming in with only strong hands, they tend not to mess with you so much.

Don't tilt.

My strategy in these games is to show a lot of patience. I play only hands that play well multi-way: big-ass pocket pairs, suited connectors AKs down to 65s on the button, suited broadway one gappers down to QTs on the button.

Don't tilt.

My favorite hands in these games are AA, KK, 76s and 87s (big pockets and the hands that crack them). I avoid playing "any two suited" and "any pair." If they beat me, they are going to have to get lucky.

I tend to fold a lot, encouraging them to bluff into me. This will pay off later when you flop a monster.

It usually goes something like this: fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, raise raise fold, fold, fold, fold, raise raise raise lose a big pot, fold, fold, fold, raise raise raise lose a big pot, fold, fold, raise raise raise drag a bit pot wow I'm up now.

Don't tilt.

Don't slow play ever. If you flop a boat, UTG bets, raise right away, as the field will call often enough, putting you on two big cards just trying to clear the field.

Pre-flop is important, but if you are not winning in these games, you need to work on your post-flop skills.

Just my 2 cents..

[memphis57]

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming all flops are multi-way and raised (5+ handed for 3-4 bets) you want to play all pocket pairs for set value, high suited cards, and suited connectors and suited one-gappers.

Stay away from bad multi-way hands, such as A2o - AJo, K2o-KJo.

Hands that can make the nuts a lot, such as AXs, 10J etc. are much more valuable, because you can catch people with lower flushes/straights.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agree with all this, and I'd add all ace-rag and king-rag suited hands. Flushes are maniac slayers.

I especially like pocket pairs because they never stop reraising a set they can't see.

Also, pre-flop you sometimes have to ignore the rules about not cold-calling, etc. Just look at it as a a higher than stated limit. But don't go overboard here, only see the flop with good hands.

Also also, it helps to agonizing fold a couple times to them, especially after reraising them in the prior round. Take a long time to make your decision. They love every second of it. Getting caught at showdown with some trash helps too, but it can be expensive to show it so don't go overboard.

I don't understand the people who said they leave games with a bunch of maniacs. When you do that next time, would you mind PM'ing me the name of the site and table?

One more thing - remember, you're going to lose half or 2/3 of the hands, after putting in 5-6-7 BBs. Don't think twice about it, just move to the next hand. If you make 20BBs when you win, you can lose like that all day. And if one maniac busts out or escapes before you get even, just wait patiently for the next one.

[Guruman]

I agree with a lot of what has been said so far. Pre-flop is indeed all about position in a game like this.

I get very tight with my pre-flop requirements in early position. Speculative hands are almost entirely -ev early on a crazy table because you do not have some important tools that make those hands winners: the bluff and the free-card play.

I tend to stay pretty tight in middle position for the same reason.

Late and on the button is a different story. Late position is where you'll make the most money at this table. Now I'll play any middle suited connector, middle one-gap, or better. If i get a good drawing flop, then I usually have great odds to continue here. I'll bet and re-raise fearlessly here because crazy loose tables like this invariable have 2-3 people that will call down with absolutely nothing.

position position position.

Don't tilt, but be unafraid to re-raise into a board of maniacal crazies with a solid made or drawing hand.

[Guruman]

I'll also add that such tables often tend to be very passive post-flop. Most players who will call whatever just to see the flop will continue to call down with crap post flop, but are afraid to push you without a made hand. Tighter players that enter these pots can often be induced to fold for a single bet on a flop that they missed or only partially hit.

be conservative pre-flop and aggressive post-flop with strong made and drawing hands.

Also, drop if you know you're gonna lose. You're gonna have to showdown to win these pots, so get the odds to draw and wait for something good to hit. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[pollyson]

if its a ring game...i play different types of hands and try to only play in position...id play lots of scs when i get em and any suited aces or ks id also play pairs but be wary of pairs (even overpairs after the flop) i would generally decide that preflop it didnt matter what my cards were as long as they were suited or connected or something of value and i would make sure to play a good strong agressive game after the flop...there is a lot of money to be made at this game

[bernie]

1st off. Position is relative to the maniacs, not necsarily to your position to the button.

I play all suited broadways JT and up. AKo. All pairs. All Axs.

Pretty simple really.

b

[theRealMacoy]

great discussion everyone.

one addition is that John Feeney talks about dealing with maniacs in 'Inside the Poker Mind'. It is more strategy based than hand values but definately worth a read.

cheers,
the Real Macoy

[Ace_Ren]

I'll foreward this post by saying that I'm not all that great of a player, but I tend to do rather well at the crazy tables.

I've found that for any poker game, you want to play slightly tighter than the people you play against (as a general statement). In a really loose table, this could be an extremely loose hand requirements for you.

You've got to be smart in games that are very loose. If possible, I try to see the flop as cheaply as possible (calling) even with big pocket pairs. All pairs are playable, but even pocket AA are often junk if it doesn't hit trips against a lot of players. You're going to get reamed by people playing 2 pair or better. You can also loosen up a lot on suited connectors and you can play A/Xs freely and possibly K/Xs and even Q/Xs. Once again, even if you hit your high card in the A/X, K/X, Q/X, dump them if you didn't hit 2 pair or better. When you do hit hard, bet it out hard. One of these pots will more than make up for the 2 BBs you gave up on most of the flops.

This is all assuming that multiple players are maniacs throughout the hand, not just pre-flop, because you will rely on monster pots to turn good profits. So you need to be reading more than just starting hand requirements.

And of course, expect to get drawn out on in games like this, even with 2 pair or better. Those losses will be very little compared to the wins they will give you. So don't go on tilt, realize that they'll all give it back in no time at all.

Granted, finding play as loose as I describe is rare except for freeplay games. Even the lowest of the real money limits tend to have only 2 or 3 true maniacs maximum at one table. Other people will be playing somewhat how I describe playing, and you'll need to adjust your strategy to account for these people too. If you can pick them out, you can make a great deal of money off of them too.