Pot odds after a raise behind me...

[SheridanCat]

Thanks for weighing in, Dave. But I have a related question.

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IS IN THAT POT YET) or that you KNOW you will have to put in $60 for a $220 pot (AGAIN, NONE OF YOUR $ IS IN THAT POT YET).

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But the thing here is. At no time will I need to put in $60 in one pop. I'll be putting in $20 and then $40 but at no time do I have to think about all that combined. To say that I'll put in $40 to make a pot of $220 is correct.

I understand that DS is being pretty theoretical here, but I think his wording is just a mistake. There, I said it. I know S&M hide behind that "we're not English teachers" disclaimer, but in this case it really undermines the example, I think.

Regards,

T

[Dave H.]

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But the thing here is. At no time will I need to put in $60 in one pop. I'll be putting in $20 and then $40 but at no time do I have to think about all that combined. To say that I'll put in $40 to make a pot of $220 is correct.

I understand that DS is being pretty theoretical here, but I think his wording is just a mistake. There, I said it. I know S&M hide behind that "we're not English teachers" disclaimer, but in this case it really undermines the example, I think.


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True enough, you do NOT have to put it $60 at a pop. But he's just giving us something to consider. He's saying that IF YOU KNEW YOU WOULD, IN FACT, HAVE TO PUT IN $60 on this round of betting, AND YOU KNEW THAT THE POT SIZE WOULD BE $220 at the end of this round of betting, would you ever contribute the first $20 to begin with? If you KNEW ALL THAT, then you would also know that your pot odds would be 3 2/3 : 1 and you probably would NOT put that initial $20 in. As I said in my first response, those are a lot of IFs, but that is definitely the point he is making.

But I absolutely agree that the wording should have been loaded with subjunctives (WOULD, COULD, etc.)

Dave H.

[SheridanCat]

Thanks, Dave. This helps.

Regards,

T

[nmadd]

Okay, so as for my original question:
The raise back to me should be counted as just one bet for pot odds purposes, UNLESS I was ABSOLUTELY sure that it was going to be raised behind me. In that case I should use the total of the bets that I would have to put in the pot to determine my odds.

1)If that is the case: If I was so sure that it was going to be raised behind me and mess up my odds, why would I bet in the first place? Why would we even need to be discussing this?

2) If this is the correct answer: How "SURE" do I have to be to include a raise behind me in my pot odds calculations?

I may be even more confused now than when I first asked the question. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

edit: I'm a slow typer. Two posts above me helped me out a little bit.

[SeeWillie]

In short, you should certainly count the money you have already contributed to the pot when deciding whether to call a raise or 3-bet.

It is obvious that your decision to call the initial bet may have been correct given your pot odds at the time, without considering the chance of being raised. And your decision to call the 3-bet is also correct by that point. But I think the point of the passage is that, on the whole, by not anticipating the raise and/or 3bet, you made a bad initial call.

I think the reason that Sklansky does not count the money already in the pot is because he is looking back at the whole round to evaluate the play. If you look back at the whole round of betting in the 3-bet example, by the end you have put in $60 toward a pot of $220 for 3 2/3 to 1 pot odds. If you have 8 outs, the round went poorly for you. Looking back, you put in $60 to a $220 pot for 3 2/3 to 1 pot odds, and only hit your draw 1 time in 4.75. In evaluating the whole round to see how it went, you don't count the money you put in.

I think the point of the passage is to anticipate raises when appropriate, and avoid putting yourself in a position where the whole round is bad for you, even though each individual call seemed correct. You can only do this by looking back at the whole round of betting once all bets are in. To evaluate what happened on the entire round, you do not count any of "your" calls toward the pot.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand that DS is being pretty theoretical here, but I think his wording is just a mistake. There, I said it. I know S&M hide behind that "we're not English teachers" disclaimer, but in this case it really undermines the example, I think.

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Judging from this discussion, I think that's the case.

I don't feel bad about not understanding it now, as I was just reading it more literally than it was intended. But I still think it should have been written in a much clearer way.

I'm still glad I asked this question, as it's proving to be a useful thread. No doubt these posts will help other beginners who are confused about that bit of TOP.

[AngryCola]

Thanks for the input Dave. Does it feel weird trying to help me understand something for once? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

But you may want to consider laying off the caps. a little bit.

[nmadd]

Sooooo......as a simple answer to my initial beginner question:

a) If I suspect a raise behind me will mess up my pot odds...I probably don't want to put the initial bet in.
b) If someone raises behind me but I did not see it coming...use how many ever bets it is back to me to calculate my pot odds.

Is this correct?

[SeeWillie]

Taking another stab:

1) Well, the short answer is that you bet because you think you have the best hand. The long answer is that the decision to bet is based on pot equity, NOT pot odds. If you bet AND it is raised AND you still think you have the best hand, you should 3-bet because you have pot equity. If you think you are behind because of the raise, then you should consider pot odds compared to your odds of improving (plus the chances that your hand still might be good). There are usually some discussions of pot equity around, and you might also look through the FAQ sticky post in the micro-limits forum (the first post in that forum).

2) If you think you are behind, then you wouldn't bet. But the discussion is relevant when you face the decision of whether to call a bet from the player in front of you. In doing so, you should consider the possibility that you will be raised by another player yet to act. If the player yet to act capped preflop, and is known to be aggressive, then there is a good chance he will raise. So you better count on putting at least 2 bets in the pot when calculating pot odds. You will never be SURE, but you should take all these factors into account when deciding to whether to call an initial bet when you are not closing the action for the round.

I am a slower typer, hope this isn't a waste of everyone's time!

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
Sooooo......as a simple answer to my initial beginner question:

a) If I suspect a raise behind me will mess up my pot odds...I probably don't want to put the initial bet in.
b) If someone raises behind me but I did not see it coming...use how many ever bets it is back to me to calculate my pot odds.

Is this correct?

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Okay, I feel that I can answer this after reading through and attempting to understand all of the responses.


A) It just depends on how much they 'mess them up'. This is an area of the game which requires a lot of estimation.

B) Yes, and count your original bet as part of the pot.