Five Card Stud and Hand Reading

[tanda]

6 handed game of 5 card stud. Second street is capped at four bets. You "announce" JJ and another player "announces" 99 ... assuming you are each not maniacs. Five continue to third street.

A player with an ace as his doorcard leads into the pot on third and fourth street ... he went four bets on second street without betting or raising. Assuming he is not a maniac, his betting into the "announced" pairs represents AA.

You call on third and fourth street, as opposed to raising, as you read that player for AA. You are getting proper odds to draw out.

On fifth street, the presumed 99 makes an open-pair of 7s. He checks and the ace high bets again. There are two players to act behind you ... a player who has passively called the entire hand and cannot beat your jacks and the open 7s with presumed 9s.

So, based on rather mundane reads, a presumed pair of aces bets into you with a presumed two pairs to act behind you (probably setting up a check-raise). The pot has $155 and the bet is $8. You can beat the board with a hidden medium high pair. You cannot beat either of two opponents' very likely hands. You are getting 19.38:1 odds with a serious risk of a raise behind you. You know nothing of your opponents' playing tendencies. Thus, if they are complete maniacs/idiots, then you could be winning.

Does anybody call here?

If you call, then are check-raised by the open 7s and the ace high overcalls, does anybody call getting 23.38:1 on the call with your call closing the action?

[Al Mirpuri]

I have thrown away hands in situations like these and been wrong. If 77 was really two pair then he would bet knowing he would get called. If he checks then the danger is it gets checked all round and his nuts does not pick up any money on the river. Mr Supposed Aces may just be that. Call, you don't like it but the odds justify it. Depending upon what the stakes are then they may well be just "betting and a bluffing".

[tanda]

I called, was check-raised by the open 7s, the ace high overcalled the check-raise and I folded for one bet which would have closed the action.

The reads were correct: 9s and 7s vs. pair of aces vs. my jacks.

I disagree that the open 7s would bet if he/she had two pairs. First to act with 3 opponents. One opponent who has bet 3rd and 4th street and another opponent who went 4 bets on 2nd street. I go for a check-raise.

Actually, my question was a specific example of a general question.

Assuming:
1) you have no chance of beating either of multiple opponents if the opps are reasonable players;
2) you are not sure that either are reasonable players;
3) the pot and pot odds are huge; and
4) you have a weak made hand (based on this action, I consider the jacks to be a weak made hand).

Do you call for the size of the pot?

I think so as well, Al. Especially since a bad fold would put a player on tilt. Consider the call "tilt insurance".

Do you call the check-raise for one bet to close the action?

[Al Mirpuri]

No. At that point I am convinced that I am losing.