Acting slowly on hands in tourney (re:MS Sunshine)

[Dolores]

Lets start at the beginning- because i feel- as expected that my attempt to have a constructive debate- and throwing out these ideas- is being misconstrued.

"Dolores, I defy you to sit at the final 2 or 3 tourney tables in a Pokerstars tournament, find that one player is delaying the maximum time (excluding time bank), and doing it systematically EVERY SINGLE HAND, to the extreme annoyance of other players, for 40 or 50 hands running, causing the disruption of the entire tourney for everyone, and requiring site management to intervene"

I have. Multiple times. In the WCOOP. In both tournaments where i finished in the top 3.

"and then you tell me that this is justplaying good sound poker startegy."

When did i say this? Im asking someone to explain to me whether its cheating or not. If its NOT cheating- does it have to be sound? Of course not. I've already said- that even if its not cheating- i have no idea- whether its good strategy or not.

"Pretty tortured rationalizations if you ask me."

Im not sure to what you're referring. If you're referring to me saying that its just 'sound strategy'- i never said that- and in fact- called that very issue into question- in your original thread.

"Why don't you put yourself in the position of the other players. Should we all now delay the max every single hand"

If you believe that what MS is doing- is 'unsound' why would you do it too?

"and completely destroy the flow of these tournaments"

Well i guess this calls into question whats more important:
The money- or the 'enjoyable speed' of the tourneys.

"a boorish jerk doing it at our opponent's table so he doesn't get a positive EV move on us?"

Dont know why its neccessary to call him a jerk- and i thought it wasnt a +EV move?

By the way- i dont know MS. Never met him. Never talked to him before- except on here- in case anyone's interested.

[Dolores]

You're misguided.

This is the last im gonna say on this 'comparison'.

[Dolores]

Oh- and if it IS +EV...... then yes-- i believe the optimal strategy- would be for the other players to do it as well.

I understand why you dont like this. Follow this out to its logical conclusion- with everyone doing this- and the tournament becomes basically unplayable.

Maybe then- pokerstars needs to re-examine its policy to protect the integrity of its players, its tournaments- AND the enjoyment of its tournaments.

[asteroid]

in chess a long time ago it was possible to think about a move as long as you wanted when playing a tournamentgame.this was abused so much by some players that chess clocks were finally introduced to set a timelimit for a game.the same course has been introduced into backgammon tournaments for ther same reasons,because some players set up their own timeregulations and tournaments sometimes took extremly long to finish.also tournament directors were provided with the possibility to enforce quicker play on clockless tournaments by putting a clock into action when it became appearent that one player was misusing his proper timelimits.in chess as well as in backgammon these minority of players caused disrupture of tournament schedules and undue delays.
so in my opinion there should also be a better enforcement of proper playing pace in poker tournaments altough the deliberate slowing down of ms sunshine lay within the rule settings.if one round of action takes several minutes due to exploiting the timelimit by several players this will diminish most of the funin tournaments and esp drive away the so called fish.when barichello let win schuhmacher in the final of a formula 1 grandprix this was also within the rules,but most people condemned this action.so in the spirit of tournament fun and fairness i would very much appreciate if slowing down that much for strategical reasons was prohibited.
greetings
asteroid

[Dolores]

Thanks for the constructive post asteroid. You make good points- and good parallels with other sports.

I agree with your conclusion. I guess the real issue is- pokers done this already. They put a clock on decisions.
Unfortunately- now some believe the time limit is being abused. So what to do? Shorter time limit? More time banks? That is-- 10 time banks of 20s each? I guess thats the real issue here.

* Dolores I think you may be mixing apples and oranges here. I questioned whether the "delay" tactic was a +EV move in this instance, but that obviously could be debated forever, and just as obviously, was not the point of my post. Again, I wasn't referring to strategic use of the time bank for decision making, or even trying to avoid a "bubble" knock out, or blind increase at a critical moment, etc. I am talking about a systematic disruption of the entire tourney and all the players by one guy for several dozen straight hands running. If you think that is acceptable behaviour, REGARDLESS of whether it is sound strategy or not, then we'll obviously have to agree to disagree.

"...causing the disruption of the entire tourney for everyone, and requiring site management to intervene"
" I have. Multiple times. In the WCOOP. In both tournaments where i finished in the top 3".

* So you are saying Site manager Steve Morrow had to intervene in chat to hurry players along who were systematically doing max delay every single hand for 50 or 60 hands running in your WCOOP tourneys? I hadn't heard that before. I only played one of those events, and money positioned it (the $500 Limit event), but didn't reach top three. Congrats on your finish, but I didn't see this occur in the event I played to THIS DEGREE, and this far away from the money.
Yes, many times I've seen foot dragging in tourneys for this same reason, but never to this degree.

" When did i say this? Im asking someone to explain to me whether its cheating or not. If its NOT
cheating- does it have to be sound? Of course not. I've already said- that even if its not cheating- i
have no idea- whether its good strategy or not."

It's not technicaly "cheating" and I doubt anyone on any of these threads has stated it was. The issue is whether it is acceptable behaviour in a tournament, and what should be done if it isn't.

" Well i guess this calls into question whats more important: The money- or the 'enjoyable speed' of the tourneys."

In other words, if you can employ ANY tactic that isn't explicitly barred by the rules, and you think it'll help you gain some advantage, then this is acceptable strategy as far as you are concerned? Suppose someone thought they could put their opponents on tilt by saying "I hate America" a thousand times in the chat box. Would this be acceptable behaviour if tha tplayer believes it helps them and it isn't cheating?

"a boorish jerk doing it at our opponent's table so he doesn't get a positive EV move on us?"
Dont know why its neccessary to call him a jerk- and i thought it wasnt a +EV move?"

OK, I concede. The "boorish jerk" comment may be too strident. Ms is normally as positive presence at the table, and it is perhaps the specific behaviour in question that might most deserve the "boorish jerk" label, not the person. Look, I like the guy, I have chatted with him many times. If I was doing something he thought totally over the line that was messing up the tournaments, I would expect him, or someone else, to call me to account for it, here or in chat or on any forum. We can't stop being accountable for behaviour just because we think it gives us a small edge for the money. You need a few million examples?

[asteroid]

in chess first they used a certain time amount for the first 40 moves and then added an adaequate amount for the next 20 moves and so on.lately they have introduced the so called fischer clock (created by the former world champion bobby f) where you got a certain time amount for each move and a basic time bank for the whole game.this took care of the former usual time crambles where players had to make like 20 moves in less than 5 minutes after consuming much time earlier.now even if you have used up your time bank you get some seconds for every new move to make.so lets say you put this system in action for a poker tournament:you have for instance 10 seconds for every decision to make and a reserve timebank to take care of disconnects or tricky decisions.of course this time bank shouldnt be more than maybe a few minutes.this would ensure a quicker pace in the premoney tournament stages while leaving enough time for everybodies individual connection troubles or difficult decisions.
greetings
asteroid

Show up in a thread about an incident you weren't involved in, have no firsthand knowledge of, and obviously don't fully understand. Make 30 or 40 posts, some very lengthy, saying "Gee I don't know what the big deal is". Marvelous. A thing of beauty. Human nature is a bizarre and wonderful thing.

[GrannyMae]

Show up in a thread about an incident you weren't involved in, have no firsthand knowledge of, and obviously don't fully understand. Make 30 or 40 posts, some very lengthy, saying "Gee I don't know what the big deal is". Marvelous. A thing of beauty. Human nature is a bizarre and wonderful thing.

show up on the forum, with not enough testicals to use your real name, bash a respected poster, and crawl away in your anaonymous, cowardly HOLE..Human nature is a bizarre and wonderful thing

[Dolores]

Im glad i didnt have to say it myself. Thank you granny.