O8 - When to fold to a raise

[Lou Krieger]

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Understand when I should raise pre-flop

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You should raise to limit the field, to get more money in the pot and to assume the role of the aggressor. Now when you hold A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] you'll see that the answer to whether to raise or not resides not so much in the hand you were dealt but your objective for the hand. And of course this is partially driven by the number of opponents already in the pot, their playing style, and a host of other factors too.

One hand you can raise with that you neglected to mention is a hand like K-Q-J-T. If you flop to your hand and win, you'll scoop the pot. If low cards fall, you can get away from the hand easily.

One more random thought on raising: Many beginning Omaha/8 players are reluctant to reaise on early rounds because the hand is often not determined until the river. Of course if you waint until the river to raise, it's usually too late, because anyone failign to amke their hand is not going to call. Players who call too frequently predicate their actions on hope, and you need to take some calculated risks in Omaha/8 by betting on the flor and turn, while your opponents still have some hope.

Hope this helps....
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Lou Krieger

[Luv2DriveTT]

Thank for your response Lou, I had no idea you were a poster here at 2+2. Perhaps we can dive into this topic a little deeper.

Although I am a complete newbie at Omaha, I come with a good understanding of the Fundamental Theorem of Poker and solid low / mid limit HE experience fueled by the help of my fellow 2+2'ers in the small stakes forum (and most recently by Ed Miller's fantastic book). Therefore I have found my prior experience translates much easier than I expected (considering I only have a few hours multi-tabling under my belt and nothing more). I have learned to rise to limit the field, as well as raise for value (I think I'm rather aggressive even as a newbie, yet I use my aggression wisely) on all streets in Hold’em. Is it safe to say that this is essentially the same in Omaha? In Hold'em calling 2 cold pre-flop is 90% or more of the time not a wise scenario, is this the same in Omaha 8?

As for a hand like K-Q-J-T, I would assume it is wise to raise this hand from an early position to limit the field, and wise to re-raise this hand if there are numerous limpers who have already called a pre-flop raise? Should I fold this hand if I am on the button and the hand is multi-way with no raises?

Omaha is a fascinating new challenge for me, thanks for helping me out!

PS: I read your book with Tenner. Although a good portion of the book was a bit basic for my needs, I'm very grateful to have read it. I'm now working on Ray Zee's book, anything else you would recommend?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[domester]

I'd like to hear Lou's take on this but, from what I've read, raising to knock people out from early position with something like K-Q-J-T is not a good idea since 1) you'll often have to dump the hand as flops w/ 2 or 3 high cards are less common than those with 0 or 1 high card, and 2) you want lots of callers to increase your payout when the flop does hit you good. However, If you're dealt two high pair and you're in early position, I'd think then you've got some advantage by knocking others out.

[GMan42]

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I'd like to hear Lou's take on this but, from what I've read, raising to knock people out from early position with something like K-Q-J-T is not a good idea since 1) you'll often have to dump the hand as flops w/ 2 or 3 high cards are less common than those with 0 or 1 high card, and 2) you want lots of callers to increase your payout when the flop does hit you good. However, If you're dealt two high pair and you're in early position, I'd think then you've got some advantage by knocking others out.

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I've always felt the same way about KQJT type hands--I think of this as more of a drawing hand than anything (for its straight value) and therefore not worth a raise. At least a hand containing AA or KK has a decent chance of winning unimproved in a shorthanded/HU situation.

[chaos]

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As for a hand like K-Q-J-T, I would assume it is wise to raise this hand from an early position to limit the field, and wise to re-raise this hand if there are numerous limpers who have already called a pre-flop raise? Should I fold this hand if I am on the button and the hand is multi-way with no raises?



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I would not raise with this hand from early position. I do not want to limit the field. I will hit the flop less that a third of the time. I prefer to have as many opponents as possible for this type of hand.

I would definitely call from late postion. Many of those callers may be playing low hands. If I get a high flop they have either contributed dead money or have a long shot to catch runner-runner to make a low for half the pot.

[Buzz]

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As for a hand like K-Q-J-T, I would assume it is wise to raise this hand from an early position to limit the field, and wise to re-raise this hand if there are numerous limpers who have already called a pre-flop raise?

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TT - I don't think you want to limit the field when you hold K-Q-J-T. Au contraire, you want as many customers as possible so that you can collect when you make something with the hand.

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Should I fold this hand if I am on the button and the hand is multi-way with no raises?

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Unless I could get enough callers for my raise, I'd want to see the flop as cheaply as possible with the hand. How many callers is enough? Read on...

Let’s isolate the first betting round.

What I mean is let’s pretend that what happens on the first betting round doesn’t affect what happens on subsequent betting rounds.

Of course in reality some of your opponents will play more conservatively because of your pre-flop raise, with the net result that even if your raise doesn’t chase away customers, you won’t make as much on subsequent betting rounds because it will be generally more difficult for you to get in a second raise. What I mean is after you have raised, at least some of your opponents have a tendency to “check to the raiser.” Thus you may miss the opportunity to raise, for example, on the turn when the limits double.

But let’s temporarily forget all that in our attempt to isolate the first betting round. Let’s just consider money won or lost on that first betting round for the case where we raise and also for the case where we don’t raise.

Holding K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],
• you’ll like 2541/17296 flops and will end up winning with them.
• you’ll like another 1901/17296 flops but won’t end up winning with them.
• you won’t much like, I think, 12854/17296 flops.

When you win, you’ll win whatever your opponents contribute, while what you, yourself, contribute won’t matter (since you’ll get it back). If I have my numbers correct (and I think they’re at least reasonably close), by raising you’ll win an extra small bet from each of your active opponents on the first betting round 2541 times out of 17296. However, 14755 times out of 17296, your raise will cost you one extra small bet on the first betting round.

When you put those numbers together, you need six opponents who will call your raise on the first betting round to net more from the first betting round than you would by limping.

I think there are some hands that win often enough so that you average an increased net profit by raising before the flop with fewer than six chasers. But I don’t think KQJTn is one of them.

And in any event, I think you’ll average less profit on later betting rounds than without the pre-flop raise when you do get a favorable flop.

Raising before the flop is mainly of benefit to you when opponents who are intimidated by your pre-flop raise fold hands they otherwise would have played and that would have ended up as winners at your expense. But I don’t think you want to limit the field when you are dealt KQJTn.

But hey, if you’re in a game where six fools will call your pre-flop raise, and then will play subsequent betting rounds as though oblivious to your raise, go for it when you hold KQJTn!

I know that Lou Krieger advocates raising with hands like KQJT. I presume he's somehow able to get these raises to pay off for him. But I don't think they work for me (and I don't understand how he gets them to work for him, except as part of an integrated system where you raise with KQJT to disguise other hands you raise with).

But there's not just one style of play that works in Omaha-8. It doesn't make any sense to me for me to pre-flop raise with KQJT in my games, but that's not to say that such tactics wouldn't work for you in your games (or for Lou in his).

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[chaos]

I generally would not raise with a high only hand. As Buzz pointed out, a raise rarely gains you much profit.

Occasionally I will raise with a high only hand when I'm in good position to help disguise my other raisnig hands. But I save this move for very strong high hands that are suited and contain a big pair (A's K's or Q's). These hands have many more flops that you will like.

[flair1239]

Would'nt there be some benefit to an EP raise with a hand of high connected cards, if you could cause somebody who might split with you to fold?

For instance hands like KQ10xR? that might otherwise be played from LP in an unraised pot. Or even a hand like TJ23 double suited, that also might be played in an unraised pot?

[Buzz]

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Would'nt there be some benefit to an EP raise with a hand of high connected cards, if you could cause somebody who might split with you to fold?

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Flair - Yes.

An opponent who would otherwise tie you would qualify as someone who would end up a winner at your expense.

In my humble opinion you want as many customers as possible for the hand so that you get paid off handsomely when you do hit a favorable flop and go on to end up with a winning hand - but of course you don’t want anyone playing cards that would beat or tie you.

The problem is: before the flop you don’t know what cards will beat or tie you, let alone if an opponent happens to be playing a hand that contains such a two card combination. And you don’t know that an opponent will fold such a combination if you raise before the flop.

It’s true that when you make a high straight, you do often run into an opponent who has the same high straight. How often depends on how your opponents select their starting hands - but because your opponents are more likely to be playing hands with low cards than with high cards, I don’t think it’s as often as you get quartered or sixthed for low. But it does happen.

However, I don’t think you get tied often enough when you’re playing KQJT to justify knocking out opponents with miscellaneous low-draw chasing hands before the flop.

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For instance hands like KQ10xR? that might otherwise be played from LP in an unraised pot.

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Gee, that's not a very good hand. I'd probably want to see the flop with KQTA-rainbow, but I don't think you intended KQTA-rainbow to be included as part of the KQTXr family. Of the hands in the KQTXr family, I like KQT9 the best But even KQT9 looks very poor to me. I don't think I'd generally be playing it, late position or not. And even if I would play the hand, I certainly wouldn't advise anyone else to play it. I'm pretty sure playing hands like KQT9 and worse is a chip drain.

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Or even a hand like TJ23 double suited, that also might be played in an unraised pot?

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Actually, I'd probably be playing TJ23d, hoping to take a cheap look at the flop. I like TJ23d a whole lot better than KQT3n!

But notice that KQJTn contains six high straight making two-card combinations and JT23d only has one. JT23 is only going to tie one out of six high straight making combinations you have with the hand. One high straight combination out of six will get tied, but the other five out of six straight combinations won't. On balance, I don't think you want to knock out anyone with JT23 when you have KQJT.

And even KQT2 only has three (out of six) high straight making combinations you have with KQJTn. But I think KQT2 probably will not be seeing the flop anyway - certainly not if I'm the one to whom it gets dealt in a loose game. Your pre-flop raise will have no effect on me if I'm dealt a dog like KQT2 that I'm folding anyway, even without your raise!

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[chaos]

I totally agree that unsuited high cards lose money.

I fold not suited AKQJ, AKQT, KQJT, etc. from everywhere except an unraised blind. I may even be losing money on completing the small blind. It can't be much, so I'll complete to help me look not quite as tight as I am.