Fold this straight?

[Entity]

Checkraising this turn would be horrible. Why the hell would you want to face them with two cold?

Rob

[GrunchCan]

Fold PF.

On the river your'e getting somewhere around 2-17 on a call, or 1-8.5. Is there no flush out there at least 11% of the time? I think so. There could very well be a number of 1-pair or 2-pair hands out there like AJ, QJ, etc. I call.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold PF.

On the river your'e getting somewhere around 2-17 on a call, or 1-8.5. Is there no flush out there at least 11% of the time? I think so. There could very well be a number of 1-pair or 2-pair hands out there like AJ, QJ, etc. I call.

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Preflop is close (7:1). I'd want one more caller to be happy. River is also really close -- but I think it's a fold.

Rob

[GrunchCan]

a diamond draw that may not even be out there ... the river is an easy fold

These two statements are directly contradictory. Is the flush sure to be out there, hence the easy fold? Or is it unlikely to be out there?

[GrunchCan]

Preflop is close

I don't think so, at least it isn't close for me. I would not be playing 64 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] very often at all from any position that isn't a blind, except under favorable conditions. In any case, I would never play 64 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] UTG, no matter what the conditions.

My BB calling standards are to play against a raise the same way I wouyld play in EP against a raise. Which is to say, extremely tight against a raise. Any looser than that and I tend to be dominated or get in to nasty judgement call situations like this one.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop is close

I don't think so, at least it isn't close for me. I would not be playing 64 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] very often at all from any position that isn't a blind, except under favorable conditions. In any case, I would never play 64 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] UTG, no matter what the conditions.

My BB calling standards are to play against a raise the same way I wouyld play in EP against a raise. Which is to say, extremely tight against a raise. Any looser than that and I tend to be dominated or get in to nasty judgement call situations like this one.

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I think your BB standards should be a bit looser, given A) the great relative position you have, and B) the immediate and implied odds you're getting. With one other caller I make this call easily. As is, it isn't a bad call, but might be a bit loose -- examples like this are mentioned in SSH quite frequently (56s and the like).

In the BB against a raise, you should be playing any hand you'd play in LP for one bet -- with the exception of easily dominated offsuit broadways, like AT, KJ-KT, QJ-QT, and JT. I don't generally play AJ there as well, but 64s is fine. Odd, no? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Rob

[Carmine]

[/ QUOTE ]
I think your BB standards should be a bit looser, given A) the great relative position you have, and B) the immediate and implied odds you're getting. With one other caller I make this call easily. As is, it isn't a bad call, but might be a bit loose -- examples like this are mentioned in SSH quite frequently (56s and the like).

In the BB against a raise, you should be playing any hand you'd play in LP for one bet -- with the exception of easily dominated offsuit broadways, like AT, KJ-KT, QJ-QT, and JT. I don't generally play AJ there as well, but 64s is fine. Odd, no? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I am going to need some convincing of this. #1- How do you figuire BB is a great position. Great PF yes, but after that you are in the second worst position (worst if SB folds) #2- Great immediate/implied odds PF with 6,4s. How do you figure?? And better than all those offsuit broadways?? How so? I'm a noob but common sense is telling me no. And the charts I have list 6,4s as one of the few folds against a raise from BB. Way behind any offsuit broadway.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I am going to need some convincing of this. #1- How do you figuire BB is a great position. Great PF yes, but after that you are in the second worst position (worst if SB folds) #2- Great immediate/implied odds PF with 6,4s. How do you figure?? And better than all those offsuit broadways?? How so? I'm a noob but common sense is telling me no. And the charts I have list 6,4s as one of the few folds against a raise from BB. Way behind any offsuit broadway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great relative position, not necessarily great absolute position. In situations like this, people often check to the preflop raiser, so when you flop a vulnerable hand, you can checkraise to fold people out and get it HU. When you flop a good draw (OESD or flush), you bet and will often get a raise from the CO, allowing you to pump the pot.

As is, I think it's close right now -- 7.5:1 and I'm tempted to call on the button, and would maybe with T8s or 97s, down to maybe 86s. 64s is too low for me here, but it isn't terrible, and I wouldn't simply say "fold PF." With one more caller, I think it's a call.

I don't rely on charts to make these decisions very often; where did you get your chart from?

This isn't a head's up pot. You're looking for multiway action with a hand like this, and you're going to get it. Like I said initially, this is probably too loose, but it's close. I'm folding KJo, AJo, ATo, KQo -- before I fold 64s here; I hope you see why.

You can't simply rely on preflop charts to tell you what to play, and when. You need to know why.

I know this is going to sound like a broken record, but have you read SSH? My comment about "any hand you'd play for one bet" is from there, though my reasoning is partly from there and partly from experience/2+2 advice.

Rob

[dellcosta]

What the heck, play it. Then slap yourself on the hand, and count it as "advertising hand," win or lose. You shouldn't be in the pot anyway with that particular hand from the blinds with only 3 other players. It's great that you had eight outs to a straight, but 1) there's not enough dough going into the pot to make that a positive expectation play, 2) you're playing against a possible flush draw. But you've come this far... you might as well use it as an opportunity to throw off your opponents and hopefully derive a bit of value that way.

[Carmine]

Thanks for the reply Entity. I appreciate the link also, however it didn't really help me to get a better understanding of starting hands. That is just an example of another 6,4 hand that hit the flop right (or am I missing something). Let me clearify that I do understand for the most part) why I am raising certain hands, limping with others and still folding others and how position alters these decisions.
My confusion comes in on starting hands like the small broadways. I raise or limp these more often than I should (if I follow the advice of the most 2'ers and other experts)I feel they make me money however. I also play some middle connectors, (90% suited), but much less often then my small broadways. My Reasoning? Since 90% of the players out there play every combination of Paint/rag, A/rag
etc. When my J,Qo pairs it's Q I'm good quite often because of the loose palyers. Of course I need to be careful of domination, but as long as I can get some reads, who limps with this, raises with that, yada, yada. I'm not afarid to release quickly if necessary.

With the small connecters if they pair I feel it is to easy to get burnt on the turn or river by that sole picture or ace when half the table is fishing. That is why I was surprised to read your comment about PF equity with the 6,4s hand. Maybe I'm wrong (more than likely). I would like to know your reasons why you prefer the small/middle connectors over the small broadways.

I do undersatnd your good position comment now. Betting out as first to act and letting the initial raiser help you jack up the pot. This is good position/situation for a strong draw or a made hand.