Flush with an overcard

[Octopus]

MP2 is sLP-P (on few hands). No other reads.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font> ...

[molawn2mo]

Why do you want to thin the field, here? If the turn is a non-club then maybe consider raising to clean up the A outs.

Better to call the flop and invite everyone to the party. Who knows, maybe it'll get raised behind.

[aron]

I'm not sure I would call preflop with Ax s when only two players have entered the flop.
I'm not sure but do you really hit a flush/flush draw often enough for it to pay off?
Then again, I'm a newbie (or maybe even stranger) and new to this. So maybe someone else can help me out there.

[rloftin]

WHY

[Octopus]

Pre-flop Axs on the button with 2 limpers is an easy call (though I admit that A8s is way better than A2s).

Reasons to raise
1) clean up Ace outs
2) get a free card on the turn
3) fish like to cold call

Reasons not to raise
1) Pot isn't that big, so cleaning up those Ace outs isn't really that valuable
2) I "lose customers" for my flush

If the pot were bigger, this would be a clear raise. My question, I guess, is how big?

[HajiShirazu]

Since it seems likely that you will get a free look at the river here as the bettor is passive, I think that tips this close decision toward raising.

[Rubeskies]

Along with buying a free card and cleaning up your ace outs, if only one of the other 3 players cold-calls, your raise is for value. Luckily this is a good flop for cold-calling. There are a lot of draws (maybe a lower flush draw than yours, straights and singlepairs).

Raising seems by far the best option here and I don't think it's really that close. Not playing your strong draws (and this is a very strong draw) agressively is weak/tight.

[molawn2mo]

"Along with buying a free card and cleaning up your ace outs, if only one of the other 3 players cold-calls, your raise is for value. Luckily this is a good flop for cold-calling. There are a lot of draws (maybe a lower flush draw than yours, straights and singlepairs).

Raising seems by far the best option here and I don't think it's really that close. Not playing your strong draws (and this is a very strong draw) agressively is weak/tight."

I humbly disagree. If SB, BB or UTG1 had good drawing hands they would have bet the flop. As such, by raising the turn you are folding out the exact players you want to stay in, namely, the weak draws. You may be cleaning up your A outs here but is that what you really want to do now?

The aggression, to me, seems more proper on the turn and especially if a non-club comes. When a club turns then you evaluate how to extract maximum value.

[Octopus]

Thanks; this was my thinking as well. I think this is close between raising and calling depending on a bunch of things we don't know. (i.e. How likely is a free card, how likely are cold calls, etc.)

For what is is worth, there was one cold call. It was checked to me on the turn, which was an ace. All folded on the river when neither the flush nor any possible straight made it. I've no idea if the raise won me the pot (but I like to think it did [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]).

[Octopus]

[ QUOTE ]
If SB, BB or UTG1 had good drawing hands they would have bet the flop. As such, by raising the turn you are folding out the exact players you want to stay in, namely, the weak draws.

[/ QUOTE ]
Lots of players underplay their draws, especially in early position. If their draws are all that weak, they may well fold for one bet as well as two. In any case, what is wrong with charging strong draws two bets when your draw is stronger than theirs? (Obviously, I am not completely sold on this arguement or I wouldn't have posted the hand.)

[ QUOTE ]
The aggression, to me, seems more proper on the turn and especially if a non-club comes. When a club turns then you evaluate how to extract maximum value.

[/ QUOTE ]
If a non-club comes, my hand is quite a lot weaker on the turn than it was on the flop. With a non-ace, non-club, I am looking for the flush, not a free showdown, so I would check or call on the turn (depending on exactly who is left and what comes). Having raised on the flop, I may well get paid off if a club does come. (After all, most players would never even consider raising in this situation.)