Reraises makes me sick!

[fujowpai]

There is, perhaps, a more appropriate spot for this, but its tournament related, so ...

Here's a quote from TPAP, p92: "do not raise in no-limit holdem, especially tournaments, if there is a reasonable chance that a reraise will make you throw up".

Now, I understand Mr. Sklansky's general point in the example he's referring to. What I don't understand is what he hopes to accomplish by raising 7x-10x the BB after five limpers with Js5c if he isn't reraised (in which case he tosses it).

Do you think the extreme raise would actually get five who've already paid to lay their hands down? Being called is as bad as being reraised. Is it just me, or does this seem bone-headed? Is the fact that it's "Level 3" suppose to make some difference that I'm not groking?

Eric

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
There is, perhaps, a more appropriate spot for this, but its tournament related, so ...

Here's a quote from TPAP, p92: "do not raise in no-limit holdem, especially tournaments, if there is a reasonable chance that a reraise will make you throw up".

Now, I understand Mr. Sklansky's general point in the example he's referring to. What I don't understand is what he hopes to accomplish by raising 7x-10x the BB after five limpers with Js5c if he isn't reraised (in which case he tosses it).

Do you think the extreme raise would actually get five who've already paid to lay their hands down? Being called is as bad as being reraised. Is it just me, or does this seem bone-headed? Is the fact that it's "Level 3" suppose to make some difference that I'm not groking?

Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're confusing books of his. I highly doubt that DS would recommend bluffing that much out of the BB in a tournament. Maybe in a cash game, but not a tournament.

If you've been doing that with J5o, stop now.

[fujowpai]

Page 90 of Tournament Poker for Advanced Players by David Sklansky.

[paddysreturn]

Is obviously incorrect. Youve still got a chance of winning the pot with a call. After you make a raise Vs limpers there's obviously 3 ways the hand can go:
1) Everyone folds - you win the pot
2) You get called - you are a fair underdog
3) You get reraised - you lose the pot

In the example DS gives - if you raise to 7 times and there are five limpers, at an estimate you would need everyone to fold about 50% of the time. You also need to take into account the relative sizes of the stacks as anyone short or large stacked may well call. Im not sure this play should be used in a SNG as there will always almost always be someone who falls into this category.

[Gramps]

I think if you have a very tight/solid image, and you're playing against reasonable players, it might be good to throw in a play like that once in a while.

Kind of like Harrington's 62o reraise of Raymer and Arieh (the two big stacks who had been raising every other hand at the final table). I don't remember the exact numbers, but he definitely overbet the pot by a good amount. But his opponents had demonstrated they could have a very wide range of hands, and he knew he wouldn't get called/reraised (given his tight image) unless one of the two players had a monster - so it probably added up to be a +EV play in his mind (or maybe it was about a break even play, but we'd all see it on TV and think he was a genius and it'd be very +EV in his upcoming book sales, who knows).

Although...I'd feel more comfortable doing it face-to-face where aggression is generally respected a bit more than playing online...I don't think I ever make this play online with total crap (absent some bubble situation), but I've done it in home game tournaments.

And in regards to TAP, it's a valid point to say that a "benefit" of making the steal play with a garbage hand like J5o is that if you get reraised, you won't be tempted to get involved with a hand that you shouldn't get involved with after someone has shown strength (e.g. limp/reraise).

[fujowpai]

[ QUOTE ]
Is obviously incorrect. Youve still got a chance of winning the pot with a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, my remark was off-the-cuff. However, your reply points me in the direction of what DS seems to be thinking. Against multi-way limping hands, you're a dog but not as bad as I was assuming. Also the Level 3 specification probably does refer to stack sizes.

[Bigwig]

Okay, I remember this now. That's all fine and good, as the other posters said, with a tight table image. But one point not mentioned there: stack depth. In most online tourneys, you're not necessarily going to have the chips to make plays like this, except at the first level or two. And at that point, do you have a table image yet? Bluffing online should be done very carefully, and situationally.

[jcm4ccc]

I think you're taking Sklansky too literally. He's not saying you should do this regularly. Maybe once in a while if you feel like trying to steal a pot.

He is making the counterintuitive point that it is better to raise with J5o than it is to raise with, say, AJs. If you raise with J5o and you get reraised, you lay down the hand. If you raise with AJs and you get reraised, then you have a tough decision. You want to see the flop, but maybe not at that cost.

He's definitely not saying that you might actually win the pot if everybody checks to you. J5o is a dog, is a dog, is a dog. Gramps has it right: "The benefit of making the steal play with a garbage hand is that if you get rerasied, you won't be tempted to get involved." But it's more than that. You want to see the flop with AJs. You don't want to have to throw it away because you made an ill-advised raise, and somebody came over the top of you. That was Sklansky's main point--how to play a hand of moderate strength in NL (limit, of course, is a totally different story).

[golFUR]

I think other posters have covered his main point well enough. I'm going to address a different tendency I've noticed. To wit:

A decent size raise against a field of limpers is often successful for two reasons. The players in earlier position (assuming they weren't trapping a monster, which they'd tell you about soon enough anyways) comfortably fold expecting one of the players behind them to pick it up. The players in later position resent being folded to, being left 'holding the bag'. There is added to it the fact that you raised a big field. Many players just assume you wouldn't be willing to do that if you didn't have something good.

Last of course is the provision that applies in any big field, they still have to make decisions as individuals. You can guess that with five whole people(!) one of em is likely to call. In reality it is five heads up matches at once, each has put in the barest minimum and each has been reraised an amount appropriate to a big field, ie. BIG.

This play is a favorite of mine from the blinds. It adds the further logic that "he is only raising so big because on the flop and turn he'll be out of position... must be a really good pair and he doesn't want to see an A". Most people, even sitting on the A, go away when you 'make it obvious you have Qs'.