Discussion about JJ--Expert Advice Sought - Page 2

jgorham · #11 10-20-2004, 07:50 PM

I think that hand 1 is an easy limp. In the scenario you describe, you really really really don't want to just buy the blinds with a hand as strong as pocket J's. If you openraise there is a good chance of this happening. I think you limp here and hope people come in the pot. Invite the whole table in! If overcards come, you can easily checkfold and you lost 20 chips. If you hit a J you can play in a way to maximize your earnings - set a trap if there are no big draws showing, and make pot sized bets and make those draws pay you if they are out there.

Hand 2 I think you raise here because if everyone folds you pick up a little more money, but more importantly those 2 limpers are probably going to call you. I would probably raise to around 80 or 100, because once again, I want callers with weaker hands. You have position on them and they will play scared of your raise. If an overcard comes, bet and fold to reraises, play carefully against a caller (probably only a solid draw or someone who flopped top pair). With no overcards you are golden. Bet, watch everyone fold, and pick up a decent sized pot.

Hand 3 is another raise. Late in a tourney I play very aggressive (assuming I have a stack that can support it). I raise to steal blinds a lot, so I would come with my normal sized raise here with the J's. If reraised all in, call against all but the tightest players. Once the blinds get that big you should are gonna have to go all in with coinflip hands, and if you have been buying the blinds a lot then there is a good chance you are a heavy favorite when they flip their cards.

So limp hand 1, raise in 2 and 3

Rococo · #12 10-20-2004, 07:57 PM

Wow, I couldn't disagree more with those who would raise UTG with JJ. Here is the problem. With JJ, you almost certainly want to put in close to a pot-sized bet if the flop is three undercards. If you raise preflop and get two or three callers, your bet on the flop will be $200-300, especially if there are draws on board. If you get any callers, the turn is going to very difficult to play out of position unless you catch a miracle J. This is especially true if the players are aggressive.

If it is another undercard, you likely will be betting or check calling into a fairly scary board. If it is an overcard, you have a tough decision as well.

Before you know it, you are going to the felt with JJ whether you planned to do so or not. This is a long way of saying that there is a lot of merit in playing small pots with JJ out of position unless you hit your set.

adanthar · #13 10-20-2004, 08:27 PM

I would raise all three, unless I wanted to limp/reraise with 1 (and I'd be far more careful on the flop if I hadn't raised.)

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Just wanted to add another variable, what if in #1 and #2 you are in say a <$50 re-buy tournament where there tends to be a few people willing to take some real risks early on.

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Go all in. You'll be called by underpairs more often than not.

davidross · #14 10-20-2004, 08:54 PM

1) I like limping here. THe raise on the first level rarely gets rid of anyone who was going to play anyway, and I can never put them on hands so I want to see the flop cheaply.

2) I have played this one both ways and I can clearly say I like raising here. If I'm up against a bigger pair I want to know now, not later. Too many times I limp, then raise a flop of undercards only to have the other guy come back over the top...now what?? I raise and fold to the re-raise.

3) I like raising here to get heads up or take it down.

gergery · #15 10-20-2004, 09:18 PM

Here’s how I’d play it.
1) Limp. My view is that its too hard to play JJ out of position with deep stacks, so I go for set value. Raising gives your hand away too much. You are very likely to get callers this early in tourney, and will need to bet the flop to win. If you got say, 2 callers then the pot is 240 on the flop, and you must bet at least 150 or so, maybe more. So raising to here often commits you to putting in 230 at minimum, and offers your calling opponents 3:1 odds.

2) Raise to 100. With position, I want more chips in the pot and am likely to have the best hand. Now my opponents are offering me those odds, and I very likely have a better hand.

3) Raise to 800. Same rationale.

--Greg

AceKQJT · #16 10-20-2004, 09:35 PM

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#1) Early in tournament, you get JJ UTG. Blinds 10/20 you have T1500.

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Limp. Play for set value.

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#2) Early in tournament, you get JJ on the button with 2 limpers. Again blinds 10/20 T1500

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Raise to 4x (to T-80). You are going to be raising here with lots of playable hands. Watch for EP limp-reraises...they generally mean AA, KK, or AKs (although I sometimes limp-reraise EP with AQs, as well [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img])

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#3) Late in tournament, you get JJ as MP1 with 1 limper (UTG) who plays a lot of hands and likes to see flops. Blinds 100/200 and you have T4000. UTG has T5500 and the stacks behind you are about the same as yours.

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I raise to T-700

--------------------

Those were pretty easy. How about:

4) Blinds 300/600, 25 players to the money, You have T-4500 in CO. EP1 Raises all-in for T-3500. Folded to MP2 ( a TAG) who reraises all-in to T-22,000. Folded to you in CO.

5) Blinds 15/30, You have T-1500. UTG (T-1200) raises to T-60. UTG+1 re-raises to T-180. Folded to you in SB.

--Casey

Mattymar · #17 10-20-2004, 09:48 PM

OK I'll give these a shot, I was hoping someone would come up with some examples like this.

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4) Blinds 300/600, 25 players to the money, You have T-4500 in CO. EP1 Raises all-in for T-3500. Folded to MP2 ( a TAG) who reraises all-in to T-22,000. Folded to you in CO.

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Probably a fold, 2 people all-in too many ways to lose. The TAG probably wanted a heads up match with his QQ or something.

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5) Blinds 15/30, You have T-1500. UTG (T-1200) raises to T-60. UTG+1 re-raises to T-180. Folded to you in SB.

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Seems like a push or fold situation, with no reads i'd probably lay down my J's this early in a tourney.

Matt

Percula · #18 10-20-2004, 11:07 PM

Since we are talking about JJ...

Here are two hands that I played today in the PS $10+1 rebuy turbo to the PS $250K Sunday.

Here is the first hand. This was during the rebuy period, getting late in it and people getting wild. The SB in this hand has been totally wild, going all-in with just about any two and calling all-in with just about any two. MP2 has been playing very very few hands. Three before this one in fact, each was a all-in with AKs, TT and 55.

I liked this hand, the MP2 player pushed quickly, which last time he did this had the 55 and was much slower to act (hit the time button) on the other two. I had no worries about the SB [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

BB (t3275)
UTG (t5275)
UTG+1 (t3650)
MP1 (t7760)
MP2 (t2175)
Hero (t7135)
CO (t4780)
Button (t3100)
SB (t1320)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t200, MP1 folds, MP2 raises to t2150, Hero calls t2150, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls t1950, UTG+1 folds.

Flop: (t6650) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t1100, BB calls t1100 (All-In).

Turn: (t8850) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t8850) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t8850
Main Pot: t8850 (t8850), between BB and Hero. > Pot won by Hero (t8850).

Results below: 
BB has 9c 9d (one pair, nines).
MP2 has 8c 8d (one pair, eights).
Hero has Js Jh (three of a kind, jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins t8850. 

Here is the second hand, this one I played baddly. This was after the rebuy. UTG was of no matter in this hand. CO had been at the table for a few hands, and I did not have a good read on him/her as fair as style goes. I had picked on him/her with steals a couple of times and likely had him/her a little on tilt. Everyone else on the table was playing weak/tight and as it turns out so was I.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t600 (8 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+1 (t3221)
MP1 (t7062)
Hero (t12285)
CO (t19188)
Button (t2125)
SB (t2729)
BB (t6692)
UTG (t35)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Hero raises to t1800, CO calls t1800, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds.

I liked my raise here, this is the same position and raise (3xBB) I did a steal from last orbit and s/he called and I bet out the pot and got a fold. I felt like s/he was tilted a little, so now with a good hand I wanted a call here.

Flop: (t3935) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets t1800, CO raises to t3600, Hero folds.

Opps... I really hate this play! I really should have either bet a lot more here or reraised all-in. On the preflop I did not put s/he on a ace or over pair and should have went with my intial read. This hand cost me a seat. I am 99% sure an all-in would have been called by this player especially seeing the play later, very aggressive with PP play. I could have pretty much coasted from here.

Turn: (t9335) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: (t9335) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: t9335
Main Pot: t7535 (t7535), won by CO.
Pot 2: t1800 (t1800), between CO and UTG. > Pot won by CO (t1800).

Results below: 
UTG has Qs 2c (two pair, eights and fives).
CO has Tc Td (two pair, tens and eights).
Outcome: CO wins t9335.