Party $50 AJs -- why do I play thee?

[dmk]

Another reason a c/r is in order are hands like TT/99/88. If you bet out, villian may raise w/ those hands to test the waters. Unfortunately, you may throw away the best hand. A c/r is a much stronger action, and will probably force villian to toss these hands, as well as AK/AQ.

It sucks that, even if you have the best hand, even if you have the opponents hand dominated, you want to win the pot on the flop. Yet another example of the power of position.

[tpir90036]

Good point. I guess I am thinking about it at a level that villain would probably not go to... i.e. if villian thinks: "I know my opponent probably only has one pair and does not like to go broke with one pair so I can outplay him here with AK."

[TheGrifter]

[ QUOTE ]
Good point. I guess I am thinking about it at a level that villain would probably not go to... i.e. if villian thinks: "I know my opponent probably only has one pair and does not like to go broke with one pair so I can outplay him here with AK."

[/ QUOTE ]

What they're more likely thinking is "Holy [censored], this guy just raised me 30 bucks, I better fold this trash."

[SpiderMnkE]

If you checkraise, a worse hand is folding and a better hand is likely to put you all in.

If you just call, you have a chance to improve if you are behind, and possibly extract more if you are ahead.

It is hard to tell where you are by just calling, but I believe it is potentially the most profitable option.

[JustPlayingSmart]

90% of the time I raise this hand in this position preflop. I didn't do it here...I'm not really sure why. I just felt that I didn't have to raise this hand. That part does not concern me though since my default play is to raise.

What I don't really understand is the near consensus that I should checkraise the flop. I used to make this play every single time. If he has QQ or KK (the hands I fear the most), then he will either call or push. I would be forced to fold to a push, and if he calls, I don't have many options on the turn besides checking or pushing. He might also call a checkraise with TT or 99, and so I would still only have the check/push options. If I push he would probably fold (but call with QQ or KK), but if I check he could easily blow me off the best hand.

If I checkraise and he has AK or AQ, I make nothing. If the turn is a blank, which it is most likely to be, I can get at least one more bet out of him.

If he has QQ or KK and I check-call the flop and turn, I lose the same amount that I would check-raising and folding to a push. I also give myself chances to catch up, since I probably have 5 outs, where given his range of hands, he has either 2 or 3.

So, I guess I agree with Spidermnke. By check-raising, I win nothing when ahead, but lose a lot when behind.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]

It sucks that, even if you have the best hand, even if you have the opponents hand dominated, you want to win the pot on the flop. Yet another example of the power of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I disagree. I dont think this is a great example of the power of position. If you had position on him, I.e. the button, and he was in a blind and showed preflop strength, you still would be in a quandry as to how to play it. (Does he have overpair or overcards, in other words) I find this to be an apt example of why AJ sucks. Same applies to AQ. Think about it.

[TheGrifter]

JPS,

The problem is you're putting him on a very narrow range of hands when in reality most players at that limit will raise preflop with all kinds of strange hands. By C/R'ing you get him to put in money when he has no hand and you force him to make a big decisions and define his hand on the flop.

I still like leading out better as your hand is very vulnerable in this spot and this will force him to make a decision without you putting in too much money, this is the conservative route.

Check calling is the worst to me, you don't know where you are now, he is probably going to autobet, and any card could improve his hand. Now you have to continue with this hand on the turn and river out of position, with little information, in an increasing pot. This is a hand that needs to play out on the flop, one way or the other.

[TheGrifter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It sucks that, even if you have the best hand, even if you have the opponents hand dominated, you want to win the pot on the flop. Yet another example of the power of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I disagree. I dont think this is a great example of the power of position. If you had position on him, I.e. the button, and he was in a blind and showed preflop strength, you still would be in a quandry as to how to play it. (Does he have overpair or overcards, in other words) I find this to be an apt example of why AJ sucks. Same applies to AQ. Think about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This hand would be much easier to play with position.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It sucks that, even if you have the best hand, even if you have the opponents hand dominated, you want to win the pot on the flop. Yet another example of the power of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I disagree. I dont think this is a great example of the power of position. If you had position on him, I.e. the button, and he was in a blind and showed preflop strength, you still would be in a quandry as to how to play it. (Does he have overpair or overcards, in other words) I find this to be an apt example of why AJ sucks. Same applies to AQ. Think about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This hand would be much easier to play with position.

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be easier, I don't think it would be much easier; you're not going to make anymore money from AK-AQ in position as you will out of position, (they will bet the flop, and unless they think you're weak, will shutdown turn / river; the only advantage OUT of position actually is you might get them to fire a 2nd barrell on the turn, but it is also confusing as to whether they truly have an overpair or not) and as for losing less money again KK-QQ, whether you C/R or raise a led bet, you're putting in the same $ only to fold to a push from either position.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that sum up losing the same in or out of position, and winning the same in or out of position?

With position if you flat-call the flop bet, however, you might be able to check it down, so you could get a cheap showdown, and that is what I think make the hand slightly easier. (Less pressure put on you) That said, I really believe this shows AJ is a tough hand to play, because you can't really define whether you're ahead or not unless you put a significant amount of money in the pot.

[Dan_Chipman]

Yeah, I have to say that I like the check-raise in this spot as well. He raised pre-flop and you said "Villain raises fairly frequently, and thus does not need a premium pair here." If he does not have a premium pair, what can he have? AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, KJs, QJs, or a pocket pair - and if he's a really loose raiser KTs or QTs. Unlikely he has 2's or 3's - but possible. Therefore, you're only behind if he has J's Q's K's or A's, and you already stipulated that he frequently raises with hands far weaker. You are out of position and limped-called pre-flop. Assuming he does not have a premium pocket pair, not only are you ahead on the flop but he will probably be correct to bet a decent amount after you check and make you make a decision. If you raise, he will probably not call with any of those hands unless he is trying to trap you. He will throw away his two overcards to a check-raise, and he will certainly re-raise you with an overpair, especially KK or QQ. With JJ he may try and just call and force you to commit more money in later as a deceptive tactic. Having that said, I believe that you really need the check-raise in order to find out where you are exactly. An added bonus - you probably don't need to worry about the straight later on since he won't call such a raise on a gut-shot (typically) and, although you didn't specify, I'm also assuming that he is not the type who would raise with 54s pre-flop.



My two cents....

-Dan

P.S. What did he have, anyway - now I'm really curious...