Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

Ok, I've decided to take a break from playing poker on Party for a week or so due to my tilt, lack of knowledge, and anger issues. So I've begun lurking and reading posts and watching two plus two'ers on Party. I was watching two of "evenkeal" aka Gigabet's table. Maybe I'm wrong here but are these plays awful or is it just me. Perhaps someone whos skilled at poker SNG's high limit can shed some light on what they would of done.

Hand 1:

***** Hand History for Game 2024635651 *****
NL Hold'em $1000 Buy-in + $65 Entry Fee Trny:12066527 Level:2 Blinds(15/30) - Monday, May 09, 20:36:02 EDT 2005
Table Step 5 #983602 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 2: NUTZREALBIG ( $1255 )
Seat 3: IWANNALEARN ( $1120 )
Seat 4: bean_mo ( $1000 )
Seat 5: URmyRailbird ( $975 )
Seat 6: TeaneckNJ ( $940 )
Seat 7: richard466 ( $1850 )
Seat 8: Evenkeal ( $970 )
Seat 9: lastwin1969 ( $930 )
Seat 10: goodLgirl ( $960 )
Trny:12066527 Level:2
Blinds(15/30)
** Dealing down cards **
TeaneckNJ folds.
richard466 folds.
Evenkeal calls [30].
lastwin1969 calls [30].
goodLgirl folds.
NUTZREALBIG folds.
IWANNALEARN calls [30].
bean_mo folds.
URmyRailbird checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5s, 7h, 2h ]
URmyRailbird checks.
Evenkeal checks.
lastwin1969 bets [30].
IWANNALEARN calls [30].
URmyRailbird folds.
Evenkeal raises [60].
lastwin1969 calls [30].
IWANNALEARN calls [30].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3c ]
Evenkeal is all-In [880]
lastwin1969 folds.
IWANNALEARN calls [880].
** Dealing River ** [ Qs ]
Evenkeal shows [ Ah, Th ] high card ace.
IWANNALEARN shows [ 4d, Ad ] a straight, ace to five.
IWANNALEARN wins 2075 chips from the main pot with a straight, ace to five.
Evenkeal finished in ninth place.
Evenkeal has left the table.


Sorry about the lack of hand converter on this one.

Hand 2:

***** Hand History for Game 2024646974 *****
NL Hold'em $1000 Buy-in + $65 Entry Fee Trny:12065779 Level:4 Blinds(50/100) - Monday, May 09, 20:38:13 EDT 2005
Table Step 5 #983423 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: RagingDeuces ( $1160 )
Seat 2: genoa_st ( $955 )
Seat 3: Evenkeal ( $535 )
Seat 4: waynecoal ( $1195 )
Seat 5: ComeOnPhish ( $1035 )
Seat 6: lastbuyin101 ( $1055 )
Seat 7: PushPushPush ( $825 )
Seat 9: NUTZREALBIG ( $1805 )
Seat 10: calmjackal ( $1435 )
Trny:12065779 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Evenkeal is all-In [535]
waynecoal folds.
ThreadsDan: Is the Player to your Left a Fish? Find out at www .pokerprophecy. com, complete win/loss records on all Party Poker Players!
ComeOnPhish folds.
lastbuyin101 folds.
PushPushPush folds.
NUTZREALBIG folds.
calmjackal folds.
ThreadsDan: Is the Player to your Left a Fish? Find out at www .pokerprophecy. com, complete win/loss records on all Party Poker Players!
RagingDeuces is all-In [1110]
genoa_st folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2c, 4s, 4h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2d ]
** Dealing River ** [ Tc ]
Evenkeal shows [ 3d, 3s ] two pairs, fours and threes.
RagingDeuces shows [ Kc, Ks ] two pairs, kings and fours.
RagingDeuces wins 625 chips from side pot #1 with two pairs, kings and fours.
RagingDeuces wins 1170 chips from the main pot with two pairs, kings and fours.
Evenkeal finished in ninth place.
Evenkeal has left the table.

He-She finished ninth in both games.

I am missing something here or is this below average play? Not to accuse or deface Gigabet's game at all. I dont know [censored] about poker but I'm hoping someone can prove me wrong or support me on this one.


My take is that in both situations it's way too early to make any moves without premium hands like AA,KK, or QQ.

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

Well hand 1, is obviously a risky play and its based on a read that they need a monster to call. Unfortunately he ran into one.

Hand 2 is only marginally questionable at worst. If the blinds were going to go up in the next couple hands this should be an autopush.

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

i think you are the biggest donkey on this forum

wanna get a private table and prove me wrong? PM me.

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

I don't really see what's wrong with either of these plays. In the first hand, he had a big draw and happened to run into a straight, and a rather improbable straight at that. A lot of the time people will fold, and he'll generally have about nine outs when they don't, so it's a reasonable shot to take. In the second case, he was pretty shortstacked. He pushed. He ran into KK. It happens.

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

Why bet 800+chips to win a 200+chips pot that early in a tournament even if you have a read. Any of the other players could have a set, straight, even top pair.

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

To edit my post as it seems the replies didnt get it.. I wasnt sure if these plays were correct or not. Simply say yes they were and that would help me out alot more than saying...

i think you are the biggest donkey on this forum

wanna get a private table and prove me wrong? PM me.

-degan (read:[censored]).

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

You're the guy that called with J high on a read and proudly made a post proclaiming your newly found reading abilities. Surely if anyone understand going with a read, it's you.

And in these games, top pair doesn't even consider calling there.

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

The first one I pushed on the turn because the card looked very safe, the pot was 300, and I had established a little strength in the hand. I didn't make a pot size bet because with my rep for the last few steps, I felt that someone would push over me with almost nothing.

The second hand should be very obvious why I pushed, that is automatic.

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

stop putting those stupid little spades icons on your posts.

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

Ok, thanks for explaining your actions. I'm still learning here and that helps alot actually. I like the tight-aggressive play.

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
stop putting those stupid little spades icons on your posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

awww... its like my signature. No good?

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

ok well i'll try and regroup it, i'm a bit jaded from your bad beat post and it seems as though you are critisizing who is probably the Michael Jordan or Shaquille O'neal of the SNG world.


I do not think any of his plays were questionable, i think they are very unconventional, but they are sound and they are logical and they are well-thought out i am certain. He had purpose with each of these i am positive.

Questionable would be not knowing what you are doing, not knowing why you are doing what you are doing...i gaurantee you Giga could write volumes on why he did each of these.

So no, they are absolutely not questionable.


Andre

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

The first one I hate. He doesn't gain all that much folding equity by pushing 880 instead of say 300. Seems stupid to risk the whole tournament in that situation.

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

BTW, both of these plays I make 100% of the time almost regardless of who is in the game.

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

Believe it or not, my folding equity increases x 10 by pushing here. Everyone knows I would fold my last 500 to a reraise.

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The first one I hate. He doesn't gain all that much folding equity by pushing 880 instead of say 300. Seems stupid to risk the whole tournament in that situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not in the games he plays....also, once the pot gets big enough he needs to jam in order to take it down. Think of it as an learly level 5 steal where his opponents basically can only be playing one of a very few hands that will actually call him there so early.

Yugoslav

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

come on man, just because it's gigabet doesn't mean he is infallible. ask him if he's every made a bad play. he would say yes.

obviously i know how good a player he is, but saying his plays "are absolutely not questionable" is just wrong. he makes mistakes.

he is the 23 of the SNG world, but saying "these seem a little suspect to me, why did you make them" is not unreasonable. they are high risk plays based on assumptions giga made which are not clear at all to us, there is much more than meets the eye to a poker hand, especially at this level.

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Believe it or not, my folding equity increases x 10 by pushing here. Everyone knows I would fold my last 500 to a reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont quite understand this because if you had bet 300 and every folds, which I assume you had hoped, then you would have risked less to win the pot and not risked your whole tournament. Also, lets say you had bet 300 and got re-raised all-in by the straight.. then you fold and you still have 500 and a chair. Am I wrong here?

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Believe it or not, my folding equity increases x 10 by pushing here. Everyone knows I would fold my last 500 to a reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that is the inevitable conclusion your opponents draw then perhaps you are pushing too often and betting pot too seldom at the river?

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

If I bet 300, I am getting raised nearly every single time.

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Believe it or not, my folding equity increases x 10 by pushing here. Everyone knows I would fold my last 500 to a reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont quite understand this because if you had bet 300 and every folds, which I assume you had hoped, then you would have risked less to win the pot and not risked your whole tournament. Also, lets say you had bet 300 and got re-raised all-in by the straight.. then you fold and you still have 500 and a chair. Am I wrong here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about what hands would be able to call Giga's allin and how many would be able to come over the top if he only bet 300...therein lies the answer. Now crunch some numbers and see if it's riskier to bet 300 there or to push.

<font color="white">
Any hand can/will raise him if he bets 300. Only a select few can call him there.
</font>

Yugoslav

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The first one I hate. He doesn't gain all that much folding equity by pushing 880 instead of say 300. Seems stupid to risk the whole tournament in that situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not in the games he plays....also, once the pot gets big enough he needs to jam in order to take it down. Think of it as an learly level 5 steal where his opponents basically can only be playing one of a very few hands that will actually call him there so early.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

So basically you are saying value bets don't exist at these levels? I don't buy that for a second.

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If that is the inevitable conclusion your opponents draw then perhaps you are pushing too often and betting pot too seldom at the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

A relative statement, yes, it makes the situations in the hand described more difficult to play, however, the other advantages I get outweigh these situations.

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The first one I hate. He doesn't gain all that much folding equity by pushing 880 instead of say 300. Seems stupid to risk the whole tournament in that situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not in the games he plays....also, once the pot gets big enough he needs to jam in order to take it down. Think of it as an learly level 5 steal where his opponents basically can only be playing one of a very few hands that will actually call him there so early.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

So basically you are saying value bets don't exist at these levels? I don't buy that for a second.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see the *value* in betting with overcards on this board given the play so far. In fact, it very likely will result in someone with a pair actually making a value raise to your bet.

Yugoslav

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

[ QUOTE ]

So basically you are saying value bets don't exist at these levels? I don't buy that for a second.



[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, you clearly don't watch the games very often. That is exactly what he is saying, and for all intents and purposes, value bets don't exist at this level. Good players just don't pay people off.

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The first one I hate. He doesn't gain all that much folding equity by pushing 880 instead of say 300. Seems stupid to risk the whole tournament in that situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not in the games he plays....also, once the pot gets big enough he needs to jam in order to take it down. Think of it as an learly level 5 steal where his opponents basically can only be playing one of a very few hands that will actually call him there so early.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

So basically you are saying value bets don't exist at these levels? I don't buy that for a second.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see the *value* in betting with overcards on this board given the play so far. In fact, it very likely will result in someone with a pair actually making a value raise to your bet.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Which once again would be a leak. If the only way Gigabet can communicate to his opponents that he has a good hand is a push and not a potsized bet, he must be pushing too much and valuebetting too rarely on the river (since the valuebet according to him is an invite to come over the top).

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

nod nod

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So basically you are saying value bets don't exist at these levels? I don't buy that for a second.



[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, you clearly don't watch the games very often. That is exactly what he is saying, and for all intents and purposes, value bets don't exist at this level. Good players just don't pay people off.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they push on the river every time they have the best hand, I imagine they don't get paid off.

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
nod nod

[/ QUOTE ]

what does that mean?

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

that means i understand and you have a valid point

i was nodding as i was reading it.

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

In fact based on the information you have given here, I have found a surefire way you would be paid off if you were the one with the straight.

You would bet pot with your straight. Your opponent will come over the top nearly every time. You call. You win.

Damn, these things are easy.

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

I haven't read the responses, probably repeating what people said, but....

The second hand is very standard. There are 9 people left, yes, but he only has 5 big blinds. He is not in good position and will likely be called, but will likely be a small favorite. I think most people here would make this push.

The first play, he made a semi-bluff and unfortunately for him, someone made a strong hand. With his call preflop and raise on the turn and a board with several draws, it would be very easy to put him on an overpair thus top pair or a small overpair or a draw would likely fold. If they didn't he had a some outs. As he has said, he likes to establish his presence early and this would also do that, if it had worked.

In both cases he ran up against people who had hands that could not be folded. Those are the breaks.

Your take about AA-QQ is really really far off in the second hand.

Maybe this is just a joke account, I don't know, but if it is a real account and you are a real person, you should try to not be such a jerk to anyone.

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

yeah i really don't see much that's OVERLY debateable about these hands

hand 2- completley standard. what's he going to do, eat 150 in the next 2 hands, have the blinds jump and have 2 bb?

hand 1- he can't pot it and get reraised, the only thing i think that would have been better is a larger reraise on the flop, a check/min reraise i don't think establishes too much strength.

therein lies the problem. What if you check/reraised to 100. I'm pretty sure the crap gutty draw would have dropped then and the result would have been different. if you get rr'd after you're rr....then you have a tough situation on your hands.

pushing that turn is definitely alright, it looks like a complete brick (it wasn't) and probably added 4 outs to your hand. NF draw, + the gutty and possibly BOTH the ace and ten could be outs....


it's not too bad but i'm not sold on the min rr on the flop.

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

I don't mind taking a stab and failing. It probably works often enough for it to be both profitable chipwise and imagewise.

I do think Gigabet knows he and the others have other weapons in their arsenal than a push and that valuebetting has a place at this level. That was what I was objecting to, the oversimplification of strategy in this thread.

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

I'm not a guy who just says "That was a great play!" because it's a well known player, however, with that being said, I don't see anything terrible about either play.

First hand, he had the nut Flush draw, an inside straight draw, and likely some Aces as outs. The turn looked harmless, and he went in knowing that if everyone folded he'd pick up a decent pot, if he got called he had some outs... His opponent turned out to have out drawn him, and he missed his big draw... It's not the end of the world.

Second hand, very short stacked - pushes knowing he'll double up and have a chance or go out and win in another SNG...

At that level, you have to think with another mindset, judging by what others at that level say, it seemed like a regular play.

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

So basically what I'm gathering from these responses is that with the right amount of information and skill playing aggressive and forcing people to call all their chips away is the way to go. In hindsight I can think of plenty of situation where I've been re-raised when I bet 300 into a pot on a draw and have to fold.

One more question though. When you are re-raised all-in and you have a draw, what kind of a read do you have to have on the opponent to call?

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

Hand 2 is totally standard.

Hand 1...think about what this flop min-CR and the turn overbet looks like. If TT were to call anyway, the play would suck...but I don't think it does.

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

Here's what I don't get. I looked all over this thread and couldn't find any mention of the wee little min raise on the flop with the flush draw. That, more than the push on the turn is what I hate. The push is fine. But why the min raise on the flop?

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's what I don't get. I looked all over this thread and couldn't find any mention of the wee little min raise on the flop with the flush draw. That, more than the push on the turn is what I hate. The push is fine. But why the min raise on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts as well. The second hand is very standard.

Re: Evenkeal\'s play, questionable?
 

Based on Giga's reputation I call with 88+, any 2 pair, and obviously sets and straits if I am a regular 1065er. He seems to have a Gus Hansen thing going, a loose cannon (relative to normal SnG style) early game who people don't really want a part of unless they can get a chance to catch a big hand cheap. That is why I am loving the min raise on the flop if I am in this hand against him. A cheap chance to bust a guy who could theoretically have any 2 if I can catch.