Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy No Limit Hold 'Em as much as the next guy (not much of a Limit Hold 'Em player)

But, this one game is killing off the other great games I enjoy (7-stud and hi/lo 8 or better Omaha and Stud)

Hold 'Em is so fricken easy, and I'd rather play more difficult games that require more skill (i.e. 7-stud) where I can have a much larger advantage over my opponents than one could obtain in a game like Hold 'Em.

Is there any hope for our other games, or will they just die off? My home poker games see wait lists for the Hold Em events that exceed the attendance lists for 7-stud. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

Haha, whatever.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Haha, whatever.

[/ QUOTE ] Be quiet Lebowski! [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

Hey, you got the wrong guy, man. Nobody calls me 'Lebowski,' I'm 'The Dude.'

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

"Hold 'Em is so fricken easy, and I'd rather play more difficult games that require more skill (i.e. 7-stud) where I can have a much larger advantage over my opponents than one could obtain in a game like Hold 'Em."

You can have a much larger advantage against bad players in no-limit holdem than in any of the games you mention. My favorite games to play are stud and stud-8 - but I now play no-limit holdem and pot-limit Omaha almost exclusively. No-limit holdem is not as interesting as other forms of poker, but it certainly is profitable.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Hold 'Em is so fricken easy, and I'd rather play more difficult games that require more skill (i.e. 7-stud) where I can have a much larger advantage over my opponents than one could obtain in a game like Hold 'Em."

You can have a much larger advantage against bad players in no-limit holdem than in any of the games you mention. My favorite games to play are stud and stud-8 - but I now play no-limit holdem and pot-limit Omaha almost exclusively. No-limit holdem is not as interesting as other forms of poker, but it certainly is profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, there's more fish and more money/tables available in hold em games. But.......those games can be extremely brutal too. Your premium hands can get cracked quite easily because you've got five or six people seeing the flop with junk, and your A/A drops significantly in value.

Whereas in a game like stud, there is much more information available to me, more cards are shown. This makes it easier to calculate my outs, my opponents possible holdings and outs, etc.

Most players don't pay enough attention in a game like 7-stud, so I can gain a larger edge than would be possible in a game like hold 'em, because I pay attention and keep track of the suits, the cards, etc.

I had three 9's on board in 7-stud and this idiot was calling me down trying to catch an inside straight flush (had the 8/5 suited on the board and 4/7 in the hole). I already had 4/4 in the hole for my full house. It was great, kept max betting him and he just called and called.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hold 'Em is so fricken easy

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, there's more fish and more money/tables available in hold em games. But.......those games can be extremely brutal too. Your premium hands can get cracked quite easily because you've got five or six people seeing the flop with junk, and your A/A drops significantly in value.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's more to hold 'em than meets your eye.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

It takes a lifetime to master.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

[ QUOTE ]

There's more to hold 'em than meets your eye.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
It takes a lifetime to master.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oye Vey! I believe the majority of pro's and "authorities" on the subject of poker would agree that 7-card stud requires more skill than Hold 'Em.

I like what Hold 'Em has done for poker, it's brought a lot more money into it with all the fish out there. I just don't care for the difficulty in putting together any poker events that don't feature Hold 'Em.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

If by "skill" you mean "good short term memory", then I won't argue. As to the skill pertaining to every other aspect of poker, I don't think your statement is as certain as you seem to think it is. Especially in no limit, "out-playing" your opponent instead of just "out-remembering" them plays quite a large role. As to your hand example, I'm sure any hold'em player can give you an equally pathetic example of a weak player playing badly. That's what weak players are for, in any game.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

[ QUOTE ]
If by "skill" you mean "good short term memory", then I won't argue. As to the skill pertaining to every other aspect of poker, I don't think your statement is as certain as you seem to think it is. Especially in no limit, "out-playing" your opponent instead of just "out-remembering" them plays quite a large role. As to your hand example, I'm sure any hold'em player can give you an equally pathetic example of a weak player playing badly. That's what weak players are for, in any game.

[/ QUOTE ]

To me, Hold 'Em is more about playing the other player, while 7-stud requires more playing of the odds and cards, calculating the math, etc.

While both games feature a bit of both, each leans more heavily to one side. Since so few players in 7-stud (in my experience) bother to take advantage of all that additional information, that gives me a much larger edge.

Granted, in Hold Em a lot of players don't take the time to pay attention to others actions, betting patterns, etc. and figure things out for themselves.

I've noticed my own Hold 'Em game improve significantly over the past year. Hell, just the past 3-4 months I've been able to figure out my opponents holdings, my reading of foes is getting much better, but I still have a long way to go.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

[ QUOTE ]
It takes a lifetime to master.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I don't know about that. It took me only a minute to learn.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

[ QUOTE ]
If by "skill" you mean "good short term memory",

[/ QUOTE ]


YUP. I think 30-40% of Stud is just memory.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If by "skill" you mean "good short term memory",

[/ QUOTE ]


YUP. I think 30-40% of Stud is just memory.

[/ QUOTE ]

Memory is a skill, in my book anyway. What I'm saying is that I can gain a much larger edge over the ritalin-deficient hold 'em players who are used to 16-tabling online, which you couldn't possibly do in a game like 7-stud.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

There's more to hold 'em than meets your eye.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
It takes a lifetime to master.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oye Vey! I believe the majority of pro's and "authorities" on the subject of poker would agree that 7-card stud requires more skill than Hold 'Em.

I like what Hold 'Em has done for poker, it's brought a lot more money into it with all the fish out there. I just don't care for the difficulty in putting together any poker events that don't feature Hold 'Em.

[/ QUOTE ]


I would consider Ed Miller to be a "pro" and an "authority".

-d1sterbd

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

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[ QUOTE ]
But.......those games can be extremely brutal too. Your premium hands can get cracked quite easily because you've got five or six people seeing the flop with junk, and your A/A drops significantly in value.


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I had three 9's on board in 7-stud and this idiot was calling me down trying to catch an inside straight flush (had the 8/5 suited on the board and 4/7 in the hole).

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I know you had the full house but doesn't this sound like the same fish playing junk trying to out draw you? We love it in hold'em too! When I get tired of too many outdraws (which is almost never) I go to higher stakes. The table is tighter and can be more predictable but the BB/hour is much less. I actually enjoy 15/30 much more because of the skill level but the profit is much higher at 10/20 and sometimes a goldmine on the 6/12 table.
Holdemfan

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

[ QUOTE ]
What I'm saying is that I can gain a much larger edge over the ritalin-deficient hold 'em players who are used to 16-tabling online, which you couldn't possibly do in a game like 7-stud.



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If you are looking for the greatest possible edge over bad players(or "weak" ones lol) then isnt the consensus the HI LO games-Omaha in particular?

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What I'm saying is that I can gain a much larger edge over the ritalin-deficient hold 'em players who are used to 16-tabling online, which you couldn't possibly do in a game like 7-stud.



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If you are looking for the greatest possible edge over bad players(or "weak" ones lol) then isnt the consensus the HI LO games-Omaha in particular?

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Another great game, better than Hold 'Em in my opinion. There are SO many players who will call you down with the 3rd or 4th "best" low, and with two pair against obvious flushes, straights, etc.

But, like Hold 'Em, there isn't as much "record keeping" the player needs to do. In 7-stud, you have more information available to you, so by being one of the only players to keep track of it, you gain a much larger edge over your opponents.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

no i think the consensus is Stud 8/b. regular stud H/L was disbanded because the bad players would almost never win.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

Ok, makes sense.

I just think players like me who dont have a freakish short term memory will always be at a disadvantage in Stud while we wont necessarily be at the same disadvantage in non Stud games.

Personally I dont think ill learn Stud just bc of that fact. No point in going into boxing 1 handed.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

IMO bridge is a much more interesting game than poker.

But who cares what I think? Or what you think? As long as our primary card-playing objective is winning money, the fish will decide what game we are going to play.

Read the literature. Poker games where the good players have too large an advantage eventually die. Your desire for a much larger advantage is equivalent to wishing for the fish to almost never win.

People won't keep coming back to a game where they always lose. You can sheer a sheep over-and-over, but you can only butcher it once.

PS: Enjoy NL ring hold'em while it lasts. The good players probably have too big an edge for it to remain popular in the long run.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

[ QUOTE ]
IMO bridge is a much more interesting game than poker.

But who cares what I think? Or what you think? As long as our primary card-playing objective is winning money, the fish will decide what game we are going to play.

Read the literature. Poker games where the good players have too large an advantage eventually die. Your desire for a much larger advantage is equivalent to wishing for the fish to almost never win.

People won't keep coming back to a game where they always lose. You can sheer a sheep over-and-over, but you can only butcher it once.

PS: Enjoy NL ring hold'em while it lasts. The good players probably have too big an edge for it to remain popular in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent points. But, the fish can and do win in a game like 7-stud. They chase, street after street, looking for that miracle card (as evidenced when I had three 9's on the board and this guy had 8/5 of spades showing and 4/7 in the hole and was chasing his one out for the straight flush)

Their chasing usually wins them a pretty big pot, so they're always chasing those big pots, and usually paying you off except for the occassional hand or session where they crush you.

You're giving the fish way too much credit when you talk about them up and leaving a game. They love the action, they enjoy betting and betting and raising, it's entertainment and excitement for them, it's not about the money (I've had people drive over an hour to my home game to play for 20 bucks, crazy, but they do it)

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

I agree that for almost all people, poker is definitely not about the money.

It's about socializing and getting out of the house, having a safe place to get drunk and ogle girls in, having a chance to feel smarter than others or blessed by God with your incredible luck, the stimulation of all the noise and people and general hope and desperation in the air, the illusion that you might strike it at least a little bit rich, at least for a day -- anything but money!

If it were about money, people wouldn't move up so quickly in limits on games they don't even know well, would care about the math, would study the games very seriously, would be flooding the 2+2 forums literally by the millions, wouldn't drink while playing or walk in the door stoned, and wouldn't throw cute girls chips at the table. They would play games that were the most profitable for them, not the most fun for them. They would treat it like something they did for money, not for almost every other reason under the sun.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

I don't play 7-card stud and I didn't write about it in my post. OP spoke of a huge edge in 7-card stud but my impression from general reading is that it's actually a sound mixture of skill and luck.

I do believe that it is essential that the fish win on a frequent basis. That means entire sessions and not just individual pots. Constantly losing is extremely discouraging and takes the fun out of almost any game for almost everyone.

Selective memory is an awesome force that allows many fish to be "winners", but it can't operate unless the fish goes home a winner once in a while.

Mason has written a number of good essays in this area.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

girls don't have to do with poker girls are no where aroudn poker

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

The Commerce Casino and occasionally some of the other L.A. casinos have plenty of women in them. There's a bar, a restaurant, the Chinese section is party central, some of the cocktail waitresses are absolute stunners and you get some damn cute dealers, and occasionally you even see a cute woman or two playing. The place is packed on a Friday or Saturday night. You can go there just to grind out poker, but plenty people go there just for the bar or buffet, to socialize, whatever. Men and women.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

If you are bored with NLHE's format or simply don't like the dynamics of the game, that's fine as it is an issue of taste.

If you are unsatisfied with your overlay you should either work hard at improving your game or invest in a shotgun and skimask as those are the only viable means I can see for beating cash NLHE in terms return on investment.
fim

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you are bored with NLHE's format or simply don't like the dynamics of the game, that's fine as it is an issue of taste.

If you are unsatisfied with your overlay you should either work hard at improving your game or invest in a shotgun and skimask as those are the only viable means I can see for beating cash NLHE in terms return on investment.
fim

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the game, don't get me wrong. What I don't like is that it's making it difficult to find 7-stud, stud hi/lo and Omaha hi/lo games, EVERYTHING is hold 'em based now. I like to play a variety of games, I get bored just playing the same game all the time.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

you should play tourneys then....the World Poker Challenge at Reno Hilton had 15 entrants into the $500 PLO game....i thought that was a misprint at first but then I saw 17 entrants, 5 rebuys and 2 add-ons in the $500 PLHE game. Maybe anything that isn't NL is dying.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

[ QUOTE ]
you should play tourneys then....the World Poker Challenge at Reno Hilton had 15 entrants into the $500 PLO game....i thought that was a misprint at first but then I saw 17 entrants, 5 rebuys and 2 add-ons in the $500 PLHE game. Maybe anything that isn't NL is dying.

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I'm stuck up in Massachusetts, with the only place for action that's close enough for me being Foxwoods (and they suck, their service for poker players is terrible, because they have no competition)

And I, unfortunately, cannot afford to take trips out West just yet. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm stuck up in Massachusetts, with the only place for action that's close enough for me being Foxwoods (and they suck, their service for poker players is terrible, because they have no competition)

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Agreed about lack of competition (hopefully Mohegan can put some pressure on them, since RI and MA continue to pass up the goldmine) but you must admit, you can get all different levels of stud at all hours of the day and night. There may not be a better cardroom for the aspiring 7-stud player (emphasis on "aspiring" in my case, i'm just playing 1-3 right now).

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I'm stuck up in Massachusetts, with the only place for action that's close enough for me being Foxwoods (and they suck, their service for poker players is terrible, because they have no competition)

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed about lack of competition (hopefully Mohegan can put some pressure on them, since RI and MA continue to pass up the goldmine) but you must admit, you can get all different levels of stud at all hours of the day and night. There may not be a better cardroom for the aspiring 7-stud player (emphasis on "aspiring" in my case, i'm just playing 1-3 right now).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the players there are terrible, which is great. But it's 100 miles there for me, and that's just too far for me to commute and only make a hundred bucks profit playing 1-3 or 1-5.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

And, FW will often have an Omaha table.

That's right. In the sea of 76 poker tables, there's that one O/8 table. Sometimes, when they're feeling mega generous, they'll open two: one $2/4 and one $5/10, although most of the times I've been there, it's been one or the other.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

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(emphasis on "aspiring" in my case, i'm just playing 1-3 right now).

[/ QUOTE ]

Might as well play $1-5. It's just as fishy and/or rocky as the $1-3 game.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(emphasis on "aspiring" in my case, i'm just playing 1-3 right now).

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Might as well play $1-5. It's just as fishy and/or rocky as the $1-3 game.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 1-3 in my experience has a ton more chasers/action while the 1-5 usually winds up heads-up or maybe three-handed at best. Maybe just the times I'm playing it though, dunno.

Also, I know what you're talking about with the Omaha Hi/Lo table. I sat down at a 5-10 with kill and did quite well. Some lady would call you down with two pair, it was great.

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hey, you got the wrong guy, man. Nobody calls me 'Lebowski,' I'm 'The Dude.'

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

Hi grandgnu:

You should try limit hold 'em, you might discover that it is much different from no limit. Also, the edge you can obtain in no limit against weak opposition is larger than the other games you mention.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi grandgnu:

You should try limit hold 'em, you might discover that it is much different from no limit. Also, the edge you can obtain in no limit against weak opposition is larger than the other games you mention.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the advice Mason. I've never warmed up to Limit Hold 'Em or Omaha (I like the hi/lo variant)

Limit Hold 'Em reduces my opportunities to push out drawing hands (as opposed to the NL variant) and I'm just not all that skilled in the Limit version.

Do you really believe one can gain a greater edge in Limit Hold 'Em than in a game like 7-card stud?

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

I think, much like stud and draw games, this thread is dead. We've completely deviated from the original subject which was regarding the demise of "REAL" poker (implying that games the author of the thread aren't good at aren't "REAL" poker). The most recent posts are concerning what games the Poster enjoys most and whether he does or he doesn't like Limit Hold 'em.

It seems to me he doesn't want to see Hold 'em becomming so popular because he doesn't like it as much as other forms of poker (or is as skilled at it) and not because he's interested in protecting endangered species. The great thing is that its completely okay to not like Hold 'em. If you play online there are always stud games to get into. Not nearly as many as Hold 'em, but they're there. It's not the case in B&M rooms but that will change. You also mentioned at some point that you have a home stud game, albeit a meager one. You should consider yourself lucky to have that to fall back on. Hold 'em will not reign forever. Those other games will always be there (waiting for their turn again) and new ones are always being created so who knows what those games will evolve to in the future. I love stud (not my best game though) and I think the poker community does as well. They're just riding the wave of Hold 'em because its great for poker. In fact, I think the future may lie in the "multi-game in one" tourneys like H.O.R.S.E. My generation has never really known draw poker (on a large scale) but several decades ago draw and stud (5 card version) were about the only games one could find as a gambler. It may not be pleasing to see the game you're most skilled at disappearing, but you have to deal with it. You just have to adapt and hope the tides turn sooner than later. My appologies, Gnu, for any contempt that may be read between the lines. I think I was a bit offended by your excluding Hold 'em from "REAL" poker in your original subject line. I really do mean no harm to you, or stud. As I mentioned earlier I love it and hope it survives.

By the way I think Mason was suggesting Limit Hold 'em simply because its more mathematic and straight forward like stud (at least I think) and also because you'll find no shortage of those games online, in B&M's, tourneys, and in home games. Also, in my opinion there are just as many weak players to be exploited in small stakes limit than in NL.

Take care!

Re: Is There Any Hope For REAL Poker (i.e. Hold Em Is Killing Us)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think, much like stud and draw games, this thread is dead. We've completely deviated from the original subject which was regarding the demise of "REAL" poker (implying that games the author of the thread aren't good at aren't "REAL" poker). The most recent posts are concerning what games the Poster enjoys most and whether he does or he doesn't like Limit Hold 'em.

It seems to me he doesn't want to see Hold 'em becomming so popular because he doesn't like it as much as other forms of poker (or is as skilled at it) and not because he's interested in protecting endangered species. The great thing is that its completely okay to not like Hold 'em. If you play online there are always stud games to get into. Not nearly as many as Hold 'em, but they're there. It's not the case in B&M rooms but that will change. You also mentioned at some point that you have a home stud game, albeit a meager one. You should consider yourself lucky to have that to fall back on. Hold 'em will not reign forever. Those other games will always be there (waiting for their turn again) and new ones are always being created so who knows what those games will evolve to in the future. I love stud (not my best game though) and I think the poker community does as well. They're just riding the wave of Hold 'em because its great for poker. In fact, I think the future may lie in the "multi-game in one" tourneys like H.O.R.S.E. My generation has never really known draw poker (on a large scale) but several decades ago draw and stud (5 card version) were about the only games one could find as a gambler. It may not be pleasing to see the game you're most skilled at disappearing, but you have to deal with it. You just have to adapt and hope the tides turn sooner than later. My appologies, Gnu, for any contempt that may be read between the lines. I think I was a bit offended by your excluding Hold 'em from "REAL" poker in your original subject line. I really do mean no harm to you, or stud. As I mentioned earlier I love it and hope it survives.

By the way I think Mason was suggesting Limit Hold 'em simply because its more mathematic and straight forward like stud (at least I think) and also because you'll find no shortage of those games online, in B&M's, tourneys, and in home games. Also, in my opinion there are just as many weak players to be exploited in small stakes limit than in NL.

Take care!

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense taken. I just view Hold 'Em as an extremely simple game, and I can't fault better players for wanting to play it and take the fishies money, since it's the best bet right now.

I consider myself a strong NL Hold 'Em tourney player, but I've never really enjoyed limit Hold 'Em, in tourney or cash variety.

I don't have a problem with Hold 'Em being popular, I DO have a problem with it's popularity really hurting the availability of stud and omaha games.

As far as playing online, don't really care for that either. I'm much stronger when I can see my opponents live, I focus better in live games than online.

My original problem was that Hold 'Ems popularity was really hurting the availibility of other games, and being a bigger fan of the other games, I'm hoping they won't die off (people use to be huge fans of 5-card draw poker, but you don't see that available much anymore either)